Ben Carson calls slaves 'immigrants' who worked harder 'for less'

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

"Uncle Ben"

It's amazing to me that this is a controversy.  Are "immigrants" only those who decide of their own volition to move somewhere because they think it would be neat?   What do we call those English convicts or street urchins who were forced by law to come to Virginia or Australia?  What do we call people who were victims of forced depopulations in the aftermaths of wars and made to settle somewhere else?  Please tell me what is the politically correct term for someone who comes from another country that won't offend our delicate sensibilities?   Maybe the offensive thing is the idea that slaves were human beings who had hopes and dreams for their children and grandchildren?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

"Uncle Ben"

It's amazing to me that this is a controversy.  Are "immigrants" only those who decide of their own volition to move somewhere because they think it would be neat?   What do we call those English convicts or street urchins who were forced by law to come to Virginia or Australia?  What do we call people who were victims of forced depopulations in the aftermaths of wars and made to settle somewhere else?  Please tell me what is the politically correct term for someone who comes from another country that won't offend our delicate sensibilities?   Maybe the offensive thing is the idea that slaves were human beings who had hopes and dreams for their children and grandchildren?

Yes, an immigrant is one who goes to a different country voluntarily, even if pressured by economic or other problems. If they're forced to leave, they're refugees, or in this case, slaves. It's a pretty simple concept.

And people aren't disputing that slaves had hopes and dreams for their children and grandchildren, it's just that the wording is hilariously skewed and insensitive.

Whether someone is an immigrant depends on where they are from. Whether someone is a slave depends on whether they are treated as property. These are not categories that deal with the same questions. If you say someone is a slave, it does not tell you where they are from. If you say someone is an immigrant, this does not tell you their legal status.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

"Uncle Ben"

It's amazing to me that this is a controversy.  Are "immigrants" only those who decide of their own volition to move somewhere because they think it would be neat?   What do we call those English convicts or street urchins who were forced by law to come to Virginia or Australia?  What do we call people who were victims of forced depopulations in the aftermaths of wars and made to settle somewhere else?  Please tell me what is the politically correct term for someone who comes from another country that won't offend our delicate sensibilities?   Maybe the offensive thing is the idea that slaves were human beings who had hopes and dreams for their children and grandchildren?

It's amazing to me the bizarre lengths apologists for Pussygrabber will go to justify anything he or his regime says or does, no matter how stupid.

Carson claims that slaves were "dreaming of better futures for their descendants"  in the nation that was enslaving them even as they were dying locked in lightless holds, and someone deflects with pedantry about the exact meaning of immigration. Deplorable.

Oh right, I forgot that slaves have no human agency or ability to hope for their children to have a better life than them even in the worst of circumstances. Silly me!

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

"Uncle Ben"

It's amazing to me that this is a controversy.  Are "immigrants" only those who decide of their own volition to move somewhere because they think it would be neat?   What do we call those English convicts or street urchins who were forced by law to come to Virginia or Australia?  What do we call people who were victims of forced depopulations in the aftermaths of wars and made to settle somewhere else?  Please tell me what is the politically correct term for someone who comes from another country that won't offend our delicate sensibilities?   Maybe the offensive thing is the idea that slaves were human beings who had hopes and dreams for their children and grandchildren?

It's amazing to me the bizarre lengths apologists for Pussygrabber will go to justify anything he or his regime says or does, no matter how stupid.

Carson claims that slaves were "dreaming of better futures for their descendants"  in the nation that was enslaving them even as they were dying locked in lightless holds, and someone deflects with pedantry about the exact meaning of immigration. Deplorable.

Oh right, I forgot that slaves have no human agency or ability to hope for their children to have a better life than them even in the worst of circumstances. Silly me!

No one here is buying your faux outrage.  Try again.
[/quote]

It is outrageous.  African American slaves built up an entire culture around hope and resilience in the face of oppression and adversity. It is insulting to their memory to deny them this.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Are "immigrants" only those who decide of their own volition to move somewhere because they think it would be neat?

Yes. The definition of immigration is that it's voluntary.

Then please provide a word that means the same thing as "immigrant" without the distinction of it being voluntary.

A lot of words and indignation to waste over a wacky and thoughtless Ben Carson comment, but the "no, actually you're being offensive by not calling them immigrants" bit is one of the most tendentious arguments that I've ever read on this forum.

No one was arguing that. 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Are "immigrants" only those who decide of their own volition to move somewhere because they think it would be neat?

Yes. The definition of immigration is that it's voluntary.

Then please provide a word that means the same thing without the distinction of it being voluntary.

Enslaved? Trafficked? Sold?

Nope. None of those mean "person from one country now residing or in transit to another country."

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

A lot of words and indignation to waste over a wacky and thoughtless Ben Carson comment, but the "no, actually you're being offensive by not calling them immigrants" bit is one of the most tendentious arguments that I've ever read on this forum.

No one was arguing that. 

Maybe the offensive thing is the idea that slaves were human beings who had hopes and dreams for their children and grandchildren?

Oh right, I forgot that slaves have no human agency or ability to hope for their children to have a better life than them even in the worst of circumstances. Silly me!

It is outrageous.  African American slaves built up an entire culture around hope and resilience in the face of oppression and adversity. It is insulting to their memory to deny them this.

Is this some kind of post-modernist thing or are you just being obtuse?

None of that was in response to not using the word "immigrant."

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Good grief.

You want to defend the idea that's been presented that it's wrong to say slaves had dreams for their children, just do it.
I'm eager to have a discussion about this that is grounded in history and not cynical memes.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Being obtuse is Shua's main schtick.

Perhaps I have too much faith in the willingness of people to examine their assumptions.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Being obtuse is Shua's main schtick.

Perhaps I have too much faith in the willingness of people to examine their assumptions.

And maybe someone would if you seemed more motivated by curiosity and less by outrage and misguided pedantry.

So this is why you accused me of saying something and then started belittling me when I tried to engage with you to clear it up? The distinction between what I said and what I didn't is "pedantry"?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

There can be that tendency. But it wasn't ultimately able to erase the possibility of building strong emotional attachments, developing a hope-sustaining religion, long-term thought in the planting and growing of food for their families, creative expressions in music and art, and symbolically meaningful funerary practices. The hope for freedom and finding resiliency in systems of meaning are also common threads in slave and prison narratives.