Vx: Frustrated by liberal universities, conservatives aim to defund and destroy
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  Vx: Frustrated by liberal universities, conservatives aim to defund and destroy
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Author Topic: Vx: Frustrated by liberal universities, conservatives aim to defund and destroy  (Read 1962 times)
Virginiá
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« on: March 10, 2017, 07:41:01 PM »

Eternally frustrated by "liberal" universities, conservatives now want to tear them down

http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/3/7/14841292/liberal-universities-conservative-faculty-sizzler-pc

Article is really long and detailed, and kind of intertwined so here are just a few parts I found interesting. This was written in response to those bills we saw that sought to forcefully balance the ideological diversity of university faculties.

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Unapologetic Chinaperson
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2017, 07:53:57 PM »

Of course, Republicans are still going on about "free speech" on campuses, when there's a Republican president actively undermining press freedoms and the state of our democracy. The Republicans' actions are feeling more like Soviet-style whatabouitism (leading to Soviet-style repression of academia) than anything else at this point.
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Suburbia
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2017, 08:22:55 PM »

Both sides are getting out of hand. Why don't we just have free speech on college campuses, period? I don't care about your feelings. College is not a safe space, your home is. Don't bring your grievances to college. You're there to study your major and to graduate.
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Virginiá
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2017, 08:24:43 PM »

Both sides are getting out of hand. Why don't we just have free speech on college campuses, period? I don't care about your feelings. College is not a safe space, your home is. Don't bring your grievances to college. You're there to study your major and to graduate.

Fair & balanced.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 06:55:54 AM »

Eternally frustrated by "liberal" universities, conservatives now want to tear them down

http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/3/7/14841292/liberal-universities-conservative-faculty-sizzler-pc

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While I have some sympathy with the POV of the author, why should it be the role of government to fund ivory towers? In the particular case of North Carolina, aren't Duke and Wake Forest sufficient ivory? Besides, there's an inherent reason Republican elephants should be opposed to ivory towers.
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JA
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 08:35:54 AM »

I guess it never occurred to Republicans that perhaps the problem isn't that liberal arts departments in universities are almost universally left-of-center due to any form of indoctrination, but rather that intense academic study and research inclines these individuals towards a left-of-center worldview. For example, as a Sociology student, there's very little in the discipline that'd incline someone to adopt right-wing politics unless they're sociopaths. This isn't simply because our professors are left wing or the texts we read, but because we're exposed to so many injustices and how they're largely socially constructed (sexism, transphobia, homophobia, racism, xenophobia, white privilege, heteronormativity, etc). Thus, to be rightwing would be, essentially, to embrace those phobias and the unjust privileges associated with them.

But, considering Republicans are terrified of education because it's all "indoctrination," they'd never understand that. They'd rather place ignorant people in charge of education as if that'll somehow fix things.
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HAnnA MArin County
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 09:33:10 AM »

Right wingers now needing a safe space on college campuses? "Man up, you little snowflakes!" 

They dream of the day when colleges and universities around the country turn into right-wing propaganda machines like Liberty University. Sad!
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EnglishPete
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 09:50:36 AM »

I guess it never occurred to Republicans that perhaps the problem isn't that liberal arts departments in universities are almost universally left-of-center due to any form of indoctrination, but rather that intense academic study and research inclines these individuals towards a left-of-center worldview. For example, as a Sociology student, there's very little in the discipline that'd incline someone to adopt right-wing politics unless they're sociopaths. This isn't simply because our professors are left wing or the texts we read, but because we're exposed to so many injustices and how they're largely socially constructed (sexism, transphobia, homophobia, racism, xenophobia, white privilege, heteronormativity, etc). Thus, to be rightwing would be, essentially, to embrace those phobias and the unjust privileges associated with them.

But, considering Republicans are terrified of education because it's all "indoctrination," they'd never understand that. They'd rather place ignorant people in charge of education as if that'll somehow fix things.
Or it could be that these subjects develop a certain ideological bent where certain ideological points of view are ruthlessly purged whilst others are heavily promoted.

For example you may study the fact that different ethnic groups in the US and elsewhere have widely differing average income and wealth rates as well as very different academic success rates. Now why might that be?

As this article here in the Guardian of all places points out it is well established that most of the differences in academic ability between individuals is the results of genetic differences

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/23/genes-influence-academic-ability-across-all-subjects-latest-study-shows

Could genetic differences between different ethnic groups wholly or party explain differences in average academic outcomes? I do not propose to discuss such questions here (apart from anything else I imagine the moderators wouldn't be happy to allow such a discussion). My point is that it is impossible to know the answer to this question from the consensus in the social sciences. If a scientist so much as asks that question they are subjected to a campaign of villification, pressure to leave or be sacked from their job, the end of any prospects of career advancement even if they do keep their jobs and sometimes even mob violence winked and excused by the authorities (see the recent
case of Charles Murray being attacked by a mob)

Now the motives of those carrying out these 'social consequences' are purely social and political, they have nothing to do with the evidence or the truth. In other words we cannot know if the 'scientific consensus' in this question is true because the parameters of that consensus are being set but social/political, not scientific reasons.
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EnglishPete
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 10:36:01 AM »
« Edited: March 11, 2017, 10:49:38 AM by EnglishPete »

Both sides are getting out of hand. Why don't we just have free speech on college campuses, period? I don't care about your feelings. College is not a safe space, your home is. Don't bring your grievances to college. You're there to study your major and to graduate.
Why do a lot of these campuses still exist? I understand that in STEM subjects students will often need to be physically present for lab work. However in these days when libraries, lectures and research can be done online is there any reason for liberal arts and social science degree courses to not all be  entirely online?

Making that switch could increase choice and competition, save money for both students and taxpayers and answer many conservative's issues with campus culture. If STEM students living too far from their labs to commute they can get lodging.

Also as well as getting money from the sale of former student only accommodation on campuses in places where labs and admin buildings occupy valuable real estate there's no reason why the admin buildings, and in some cases the labs as well, shouldn't be sold off and moved to industrial estates. Getting rid of campuses won't by itself be sufficient to cure the hothouse far left atmosphere of Universities but it will be a valuable step.
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Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 11:44:30 AM »

Both sides are getting out of hand. Why don't we just have free speech on college campuses, period? I don't care about your feelings. College is not a safe space, your home is. Don't bring your grievances to college. You're there to study your major and to graduate.


When Republicans/Trumpers can stop pretending that 2+2=4 and 2+2=3 are equally valid statements then we can talk about taking them seriously. Until then, they're nuts and a fair hearing means telling them they're nuts.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 12:14:15 PM »

Young people go left in college because they want to change the world, and they think that left-wing social activism is the way to do that. What we need is some sort of compulsory volunteer service: let our young people get rid of their activism bug without making them go Full Degenerate.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 12:22:35 PM »

The people calling for this are a handful of backbenchers in state legislatures. This is nothing short of whataboutism trying to pretend as if "both sides" are equally hostile to free speech-- but on campus, it's abundantly clear who the people hostile to free speech (or at least desirous of placing onerous burdens on its exercise) are.
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Jeffster
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2017, 02:26:11 PM »

We shouldn't be using taxpayer money to pay for people to be indoctrinated by marxists for useless liberal arts degrees. We need to refocus our spending on education towards useful degrees in STEM. If someone is studying for a STEM degree they should be eligible for enough grants to make it a free ride so long as they maintain good grades and their parents income isn't too high. Next, get rid of subsidized student loans, and bring back the ability to discharge student loans through bankruptcy. That way if some idiot wants to borrow $100,000 or more to major in gender studies or some other useless degree, they have to show the lender they have the ability to pay it back, this will make it harder to get student loans.
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Virginiá
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2017, 02:53:34 PM »

We shouldn't be using taxpayer money to pay for people to be indoctrinated by marxists for useless liberal arts degrees.

Putting aside the Marxist tripe, I would argue that that cuts both ways, at least in K12. Taxpayers shouldn't be paying for kids to be sent to religious schools via voucher programs. Nor should we be so lax with charter school funding, either.

The people calling for this are a handful of backbenchers in state legislatures. This is nothing short of whataboutism trying to pretend as if "both sides" are equally hostile to free speech-- but on campus, it's abundantly clear who the people hostile to free speech (or at least desirous of placing onerous burdens on its exercise) are.

It's not all about trying to force universities to hire conservative professors. It's about conservatives trying to starve schools they don't like of funding. It's been happening in a lot of places.
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EnglishPete
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2017, 03:06:46 PM »

We shouldn't be using taxpayer money to pay for people to be indoctrinated by marxists for useless liberal arts degrees. We need to refocus our spending on education towards useful degrees in STEM. If someone is studying for a STEM degree they should be eligible for enough grants to make it a free ride so long as they maintain good grades and their parents income isn't too high. Next, get rid of subsidized student loans, and bring back the ability to discharge student loans through bankruptcy. That way if some idiot wants to borrow $100,000 or more to major in gender studies or some other useless degree, they have to show the lender they have the ability to pay it back, this will make it harder to get student loans.

David Gelernter, a possible pick for the role of Trump's Science Advisor has suggested some interesting ideas in this area

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http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/potential-trump-science-adviser-9-in-10-colleges-will-fail.html
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2017, 03:20:35 PM »

I oppose both govt funding of religious schools and support govt defunding of useless programs at universities.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2017, 03:26:09 PM »

We shouldn't be using taxpayer money to pay for people to be indoctrinated by marxists for useless liberal arts degrees. We need to refocus our spending on education towards useful degrees in STEM. If someone is studying for a STEM degree they should be eligible for enough grants to make it a free ride so long as they maintain good grades and their parents income isn't too high. Next, get rid of subsidized student loans, and bring back the ability to discharge student loans through bankruptcy. That way if some idiot wants to borrow $100,000 or more to major in gender studies or some other useless degree, they have to show the lender they have the ability to pay it back, this will make it harder to get student loans.

David Gelernter, a possible pick for the role of Trump's Science Advisor has suggested some interesting ideas in this area

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http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/potential-trump-science-adviser-9-in-10-colleges-will-fail.html

"Throwing out humanity" is a very succinct way of describing STEM-oriented education reform Smiley
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Anna Komnene
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2017, 06:27:43 PM »

We shouldn't be using taxpayer money to pay for people to be indoctrinated by marxists for useless liberal arts degrees. We need to refocus our spending on education towards useful degrees in STEM. If someone is studying for a STEM degree they should be eligible for enough grants to make it a free ride so long as they maintain good grades and their parents income isn't too high. Next, get rid of subsidized student loans, and bring back the ability to discharge student loans through bankruptcy. That way if some idiot wants to borrow $100,000 or more to major in gender studies or some other useless degree, they have to show the lender they have the ability to pay it back, this will make it harder to get student loans.

This would be a great way to drive down the wages of STEM majors.  You'd know this if you took econ.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2017, 06:39:24 PM »

The people calling for this are a handful of backbenchers in state legislatures. This is nothing short of whataboutism trying to pretend as if "both sides" are equally hostile to free speech-- but on campus, it's abundantly clear who the people hostile to free speech (or at least desirous of placing onerous burdens on its exercise) are.

It's not all about trying to force universities to hire conservative professors. It's about conservatives trying to starve schools they don't like of funding. It's been happening in a lot of places.

Well, my understanding is that the reduction state funding for public universities and colleges is something that's been happening for for quite a while, more or less independent of any concern over universities' ideological outlook.
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Virginiá
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2017, 08:31:46 PM »

Well, my understanding is that the reduction state funding for public universities and colleges is something that's been happening for for quite a while, more or less independent of any concern over universities' ideological outlook.

The recession caused states to cut back and many never restored funding, or only partially. Since then, you've had numerous GOP-controlled states trashing the universities rhetorically and then proceeding to make changes and cuts that are detrimental to their well-being. Republicans have been railing against higher education for a while now. Given their power at the state level, of course they would move on this.
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Anna Komnene
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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2017, 08:40:10 PM »
« Edited: March 11, 2017, 08:48:04 PM by Siren »

Well, my understanding is that the reduction state funding for public universities and colleges is something that's been happening for for quite a while, more or less independent of any concern over universities' ideological outlook.

The recession caused states to cut back and many never restored funding, or only partially. Since then, you've had numerous GOP-controlled states trashing the universities rhetorically and then proceeding to make changes and cuts that are detrimental to their well-being. Republicans have been railing against higher education for a while now. Given their power at the state level, of course they would move on this.

Well, not just the GOP either.  Cuomo has been throwing higher education under the bus for years.  It's one of his favorite pastimes.  Or at least he did until Trump got elected and he decided "sensible fiscal conservative" wasn't en vogue anymore.
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Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2017, 08:42:17 PM »

Young people go left in college because they want to change the world, and they think that left-wing social activism is the way to do that. What we need is some sort of compulsory volunteer service: let our young people get rid of their activism bug without making them go Full Degenerate.

In my experience it's more that young people go left because going right means having their frontal lobes scooped out and replaced with a fetid, shredded mess of the stinkiest of ancient propaganda along with a few choice turds from the last century. And now they top it off by stapling a cherry-red hat to their heads afterwards.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2017, 09:12:04 PM »

Young people go left in college because they want to change the world, and they think that left-wing social activism is the way to do that. What we need is some sort of compulsory volunteer service: let our young people get rid of their activism bug without making them go Full Degenerate.

In my experience it's more that young people go left because going right means having their frontal lobes scooped out and replaced with a fetid, shredded mess of the stinkiest of ancient propaganda along with a few choice turds from the last century. And now they top it off by stapling a cherry-red hat to their heads afterwards.

I'm sure that many young people are impressed by the college left ideology, it being the first ideology they've encountered that has intelligible principles. That doesn't mean that college leftism is anything more than a collection of platitudes - just look at that mumbo-jumbo poster you have in your signature!
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Jeffster
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2017, 10:21:33 PM »
« Edited: March 11, 2017, 10:26:26 PM by Jeffster »

We shouldn't be using taxpayer money to pay for people to be indoctrinated by marxists for useless liberal arts degrees. We need to refocus our spending on education towards useful degrees in STEM. If someone is studying for a STEM degree they should be eligible for enough grants to make it a free ride so long as they maintain good grades and their parents income isn't too high. Next, get rid of subsidized student loans, and bring back the ability to discharge student loans through bankruptcy. That way if some idiot wants to borrow $100,000 or more to major in gender studies or some other useless degree, they have to show the lender they have the ability to pay it back, this will make it harder to get student loans.

This would be a great way to drive down the wages of STEM majors.  You'd know this if you took econ.

I've taken Economics, and that would only be true if we didn't have a shortage of STEM workers as it is, and if all the students who suddenly switched to STEM under my plan were capable of getting the good grades needed to maintain the scholarships/grants and graduating with a degree. We wouldn't need H1B visa workers if there wasn't a shortage, unless you think there is an ulterior motive for bringing in so many H1B visa workers. Also, I've tutored math while in college, working in our Math department's open lab for any students in need of help. Most of the students I dealt with were liberal arts majors, trying to pass Algebra. I doubt most liberal arts majors could handle majors that required multiple semesters involving Calculus, and/or Physics, and/or Computer Science, and/or Engineering. You even see the difficulty STEM majors have with staying in the program, as the Freshman classes are usually huge, and there is a big drop off in Sophomores and above, as the major proves too difficult for them, so they switch to something easier.
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Jeffster
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2017, 10:22:18 PM »
« Edited: March 11, 2017, 10:27:40 PM by Jeffster »

We shouldn't be using taxpayer money to pay for people to be indoctrinated by marxists for useless liberal arts degrees. We need to refocus our spending on education towards useful degrees in STEM. If someone is studying for a STEM degree they should be eligible for enough grants to make it a free ride so long as they maintain good grades and their parents income isn't too high. Next, get rid of subsidized student loans, and bring back the ability to discharge student loans through bankruptcy. That way if some idiot wants to borrow $100,000 or more to major in gender studies or some other useless degree, they have to show the lender they have the ability to pay it back, this will make it harder to get student loans.

If you kill funding for non-STEM Degrees then how will fake Universities like Liberty U get their cash?

I don't give a crap about religious loons and their "University."
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