transgender and sports

[dead0man]

I'm sure those that pay attention to these kinds of things have heard about the young trans boy in Texas that won his weight class in the HS girls wrestling championship and was booed for it.  He wanted to compete with the boys, but the state's athletic department wouldn't let him.  He is taking hormones, including testosterone.


There is no easy answer here.  It's not fair to the girls to have compete against someone using chemicals that would get them banned.  Hell, even if they let him compete against boys this still wouldn't be fair.  But it's not fair to ban trans people from competition in athletics either.



So what am I missing here, is there an easy and fair answer I ain't seeing?

[progressive85]

Trans boys are just boys.  I think we think to get rid of the "trans" labels.  This is a medical/science issue.  I think someone who believes in their heart that they are a boy and is on testosterone and presents as a boy full-time and goes by a boy's name should be recognized and acknowledged and affirmed by society as a boy.  He should be allowed to live a normal boy's life and participate in all the activities that a boy does.

I think this is all just gender-based discrimination.  Trans boys are boys.  Trans girls are girls.  And I think the "trans" label will die off one day.

It's easy to understand why people are confused.  They see drag queens on TV and they see older crossdressers and they think that's the same thing as these young kids in the schools, but its not.  Drag is a performance art - its meant to entertain people.  Crossdressing is an outlet for mostly straight, married men to express their feminine side... when we're talking about a 5 year old trans person that is the way the brain developed in the womb.

[parochial boy]

This has been a massively controversial issue, in line with the issue of Intersex athletes, in the world of Track and Field. This has been since Caster Semenya burst on to the scene, but there have been a lot of rumour surrounding other middle distance runners.

Anyway, it does seem that, as far as Transwomen are concerned, the testosterone inhibitors and other hormone treatments do cancel out any advantages that their natural biology would give them.

Really, I suppose the fairest way to do it would to be to set a certain range of testosterone in the blood or whatever, I'm not an expert, that a trans athlete would have to fall within (ie not too high or not too low) in order to compete.

Of course, this isn't perfect, a lot of activists claim this is still discrmination; and it would be open to abuse (people would magically always be hitting the top of the range), but failing any alternatives it is probably the best option.

[dead0man]

Anyway, it does seem that, as far as Transwomen are concerned, the testosterone inhibitors and other hormone treatments do cancel out any advantages that their natural biology would give them.

Really, I suppose the fairest way to do it would to be to set a certain range of testosterone in the blood or whatever, I'm not an expert, that a trans athlete would have to fall within (ie not too high or not too low) in order to compete.

Of course, this isn't perfect, a lot of activists claim this is still discrmination; and it would be open to abuse (people would magically always be hitting the top of the range), but failing any alternatives it is probably the best option.

Ahhh, yeah, that might be it right there.  You'd have to let everybody "adjust" their numbers though.....but would that mean blood testing every freshman volleyball payer at every HS in the country?  Seems expensive and invasive.  Limit it to "challenges"...that seems easy to abuse and possibly humiliating to innocent kids.

ugggg

[RI]

Sports are segregated by sex by necessity or else the vast majority of women would not be able to participate in most sports. As long as that remains the case, people should have to compete based on their biological sex of birth. If a boy can no longer compete with other boys due to taking estrogen, then he can't compete; he made a decision and must live with the consequences.

Alternatively, we could end sex segregation in sports altogether, but I don't think most people would like the result of that in most cases (I'm sure it would be fine in some sports, though).

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Given how strong the effects of testosterone are on muscle development, it would probably be most fair to make the decision based on hormones. There's an implicit assumption here that trans people will also transition physically, which is not a given. A transwoman would be well within her rights to decline hormone therapy, but allowing her to then compete with women would cause lots of problems.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Anyway, it does seem that, as far as Transwomen are concerned, the testosterone inhibitors and other hormone treatments do cancel out any advantages that their natural biology would give them.

Really, I suppose the fairest way to do it would to be to set a certain range of testosterone in the blood or whatever, I'm not an expert, that a trans athlete would have to fall within (ie not too high or not too low) in order to compete.

Of course, this isn't perfect, a lot of activists claim this is still discrmination; and it would be open to abuse (people would magically always be hitting the top of the range), but failing any alternatives it is probably the best option.

Ahhh, yeah, that might be it right there.  You'd have to let everybody "adjust" their numbers though.....but would that mean blood testing every freshman volleyball payer at every HS in the country?  Seems expensive and invasive.  Limit it to "challenges"...that seems easy to abuse and possibly humiliating to innocent kids.

ugggg

I feel like this is one of those scenarios that so rarely occur that it's hardly worth debating them, just because trans people make up less than one percent of the population and these things are better handled quietly and on an individual basis, rather than sensationalized so that Very Serious People can express their collective outrage.

That said, I think parochial boy is right on this and that's probably the best way to settle this 'problem.'  But it shouldn't by any means set a precedent for every kid who wants to join a sport.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

In this particular case, the athlete in question was taking performance-enhancing drugs and thus should be ineligible, regardless of whether you believe the athlete is a man or a woman.  Had she competed in the male division, it would have been the same, with the same problem of PEDs.  Frankly, given how kids can go through phases, I think it should be illegal for kids to do anything to try to change which gender they appear as (I don't believe that transgenderism is a real thing, but that is beyond the point here).

[RFayette]

There doesn't seem to be a good answer to this question. I guess that I'm a little too caught up on the working assumption that it's OK to prescribe hormones to physically healthy high schoolers to consider its implications.

This.  Nonetheless, I think the Olympics rules vis a vis gender testing for women's sports seem reasonable here. 

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

It's something that should be handled at the local level, case-by-case. Enough said.

That being said, no five year old should be put on hormones. A five year old can barely comprehend the concept of gender, let alone make an intelligent judgement of whether their biological sex is incorrect. It's okay from like 7th grade up with parental permission, but to make the decision on your own you should be 18.

[Ebowed]

It's something that should be handled at the local level, case-by-case. Enough said.

That being said, no five year old should be put on hormones. A five year old can barely comprehend the concept of gender, let alone make an intelligent judgement of whether their biological sex is incorrect. It's okay from like 7th grade up with parental permission, but to make the decision on your own you should be 18.

It's always illuminating to see the "values" crowd pretend this is about physical health*.  (You folks do this when it comes to teenagers taking the morning-after pill too.  But what about the hormones? you say, ignoring the physical risks of a 13 year old carrying a pregnancy to term.  And in days prior, your lot would also be out there explaining that homosexuals had a shorter life expectancy due to the "physical risks of anal sex".)

I'm sure you are up in arms when you see parents taking their 5 year olds to eat at McDonald's, or when the television takes the place of the parent for a good 16 years of the child's life.

*BTW, your physical health is seriously adversely affected by poor mental health.  Chew on that.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Don't take my position on one issue and try to assume my position on others.

I support contraception, including plan B and the morning-after pill. Under-18s should have to have parental permission to get plan B/morning-after, unless a judge says otherwise - just as would be needed for virtually anything else they want to do at that point in their lives. But no absolute minimum age is needed here as the only reason to take this stuff is to prevent pregnancy - and if no pregnancy exists, no harm done.

And I wouldn't try to ban anal homosexual sex, nor would I have done so in years past. Homosexual​ Sodomy and Fornication are an affront to God, yes, but has no possible effect on society as a whole, and therefore falls within a reasonable definition of separation of church and state.

I actually think McDonald's​ should be closed down by the government for having a mission to make people obese, and I do not eat there myself, period. I'm dead serious here.

-------------------

As far as television goes, this really gets into why I am cautious about transgender treatments in children. It's easy for kids to look at something on TV, think it's cool, and apply it to themselves, and this is no different. You should only get transgender treatments if you are actually trans - if you are a cis person who has taken trans treatments, then you have transformed yourself from the right gender to the wrong gender, worsening your state of health when you realize this many years later. And I know what you're about to say - "But society is mean to transgender people! No one would ever think it was cool!" - but that argument is getting weaker each day as society is getting more and more accepting of transgender people each day, increasing the chances for it to be viewed as cool, especially to children, who are often easily convinced of all sorts of things. By waiting until age 12 or 13 to allow transgender treatment, even with parental/court permission, we ensure that the child has a good amount of understanding regarding the purpose of the treatment, and greatly increase the chance that they are in fact trans and aren't just going through a phase they got from television or wherever. It's a pretty common sense policy.

[Anna Komnene]

And I wouldn't try to ban anal homosexual sex, nor would I have done so in years past. Homosexual​ Sodomy and Fornication are an affront to God, yes, but has no possible effect on society as a whole, and therefore falls within a reasonable definition of separation of church and state.

Kinky.

At the risk of making a joke that no one but me will understand... fortunately God probably doesn't understand how lesbian sex works.  Can't be affronted by what you don't understand!

[ilikeverin]

m8 where on earth did you get the idea that transness is portrayed in the mass media as Cool and Trendy

"You aren't on hormones? Lol what a loser"

Anti-cis bullying is so commonplace in high schools!  Kids are constantly shoved into lockers and asked why their genitals match their gender presentation.  So tragic.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

m8 where on earth did you get the idea that transness is portrayed in the mass media as Cool and Trendy

"You aren't on hormones? Lol what a loser"

Anti-cis bullying is so commonplace in high schools!  Kids are constantly shoved into lockers and asked why their genitals match their gender presentation.  So tragic.

here’s a thing that happened to one of my friends. i was there.

basically, we were walking down the sidewalk, talking about something meaningless. i think it had to do with a movie. then this bus screeches up, stops next to us, and a bunch of people with “down with cis” shirts climbed out and started beating him up. i was punched and kicked a bit too, but i managed to avoid brutalization by going for their faces. after figuring out what’s happening, i started attacking them back, getting them off of him. he was quite injured but i called 911 and he made a full recovery at the hospital. i was fine, with only a cut on my arm that they patched up.

[Beet]

Remember to keep the discussion here at debate quality.

[tik 🪀✨]

Hormones are complicated, and measuring testosterone/estrogen levels doesn't really tell you a lot about someone's physicality at any given moment. If you wanted to "test" a transgender person to make sure they were at acceptable levels to compete as their gender, you'd have to.. take an awful lot of blood tests over an awfully long period of time. But to just have someone pipe up and come out as transgender suddenly and immediately swap with whom they're competing seems.. obviously unfair. Clearly this is something we all need to pray about together.

There doesn't seem to be a good answer to this question. I guess that I'm a little too caught up on the working assumption that it's OK to prescribe hormones to physically healthy high schoolers to consider its implications.

This is a debate worth having that nobody seems interested in (although the "physically healthy" part is little bit baffling to me). It's taboo in many circles to be critical of how we treat transgender children/adolescents. I have deeply mixed feelings about it all. In a way you do confuse me, though, because I have gotten the impression you are a big proponent of the preventative aspects of healthcare and how they produce better outcomes immediately and in the long term for individuals and the societies in which they live (if this is incorrect, sorry). If a high schooler strongly identifies as belonging to the gender opposite their assigned sex, in the long term, giving them hormones and help sooner than later can benefit everyone, can't it? Most of the effects are reversible anyway, and it prevents the development of characteristics that exacerbate self-hatred.

[tik 🪀✨]

Sports are segregated by sex by necessity or else the vast majority of women would not be able to participate in most sports. As long as that remains the case, people should have to compete based on their biological sex of birth. If a boy can no longer compete with other boys due to taking estrogen, then he can't compete; he made a decision and must live with the consequences.

this is neither realistic nor ideal

[Hammy]

I think a way this can be settled, is desegregate sports by gender, and simply divide things up by weight and build. I think a contributor to people opposing transgender in sports, is that they're forced to face the uncomfortable fact of gender discrimination in sports--they can't turn their heads and pretend it doesn't exist anymore.

[catographer]

Trans boys are just boys.  I think we think to get rid of the "trans" labels.  This is a medical/science issue.  I think someone who believes in their heart that they are a boy and is on testosterone and presents as a boy full-time and goes by a boy's name should be recognized and acknowledged and affirmed by society as a boy.  He should be allowed to live a normal boy's life and participate in all the activities that a boy does.

I think this is all just gender-based discrimination.  Trans boys are boys.  Trans girls are girls.  And I think the "trans" label will die off one day.

It's easy to understand why people are confused.  They see drag queens on TV and they see older crossdressers and they think that's the same thing as these young kids in the schools, but its not.  Drag is a performance art - its meant to entertain people.  Crossdressing is an outlet for mostly straight, married men to express their feminine side... when we're talking about a 5 year old trans person that is the way the brain developed in the womb.

Amen. Also for anyone who doubts it, transgender is real just like homosexuality or bisexuality, etc. Trans people are our neighbors, friends, relatives, lovers. We need to respect their existence and figure out the best way we can live peacefully together without hate or fear.