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Author Topic: The Diocese of South Carolina Officially Decides to Join ACNA  (Read 1555 times)
libertpaulian
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« on: March 17, 2017, 07:17:50 pm »
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In 2012, the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina seceded from The Episcopal Church, mainly due to its then-presiding bishop's theological liberalism and its views on homosexuality.  Its status was in limbo, but they've now decided to join ACNA, a denomination that was formed mostly out of congregations in TEC that left their mother denomination from 2003-present due to the ordination of Gene Robinson, a man in a gay relationship, as a bishop.

http://www.postandcourier.com/features/diocese-of-south-carolina-joins-acna/article_2e5d50aa-069e-11e7-ac74-93cac51eac50.html
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2017, 11:11:15 pm »
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I wonder if there will be any realignment between churches in the Diocese of the Carolinas and the Diocese of South Carolina.  A few of them are former members and now that the DSC is no longer part of TEC, it might choose to resume be a diocese for the whole state instead of just the low country (The upstate has been part of the Diocese of Upper South Carolina since 1922.)
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« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2017, 12:27:06 am »
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As an ACNA-aligned Anglican, I welcome the SC Episcopagans into our ranks. Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2017, 02:12:02 am »
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'kay
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2017, 07:36:30 pm »
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As a Mormon...

*shrug*

*get on with life*

Though I do find these constant splitting and joining efforts fascinating.
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2017, 08:52:45 pm »
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What a bunch of cucks.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2017, 07:00:48 am »
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While I'm pleased to see conservative groups leaving the mainline churches for more orthodox groups, I have to ask, what took them so long?

Groups like TEC and PCUSA have long since lost the marks of being a true church in the classic Protestant sense of the word. The mainlines have been compromising on much more fundamental issues than gay rights for a long time. If someone like Bishop Spong in TEC or Bill Phipps in the United Church of Canada can deny the Gospel with no sanction, that ought to be a final straw.
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libertpaulian
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2017, 10:45:30 am »
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While I'm pleased to see conservative groups leaving the mainline churches for more orthodox groups, I have to ask, what took them so long?

Groups like TEC and PCUSA have long since lost the marks of being a true church in the classic Protestant sense of the word. The mainlines have been compromising on much more fundamental issues than gay rights for a long time. If someone like Bishop Spong in TEC or Bill Phipps in the United Church of Canada can deny the Gospel with no sanction, that ought to be a final straw.
That was always my question, too.  I know a few ACNA people, and I asked them, "Oh, so Bishop Spong can deny the Gospel and keep his job back in the early 90s, but you ordain just one gay man, and now it's the end of the world?"
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2017, 02:32:53 pm »
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I swear the only place I've ever heard about this "Spong" guy is from #triggered religious conservatives on this forum. After quasi-associating with the Episcopals for over 5 years in real life, I've never once heard a thing about him - I doubt many rank-and-file Episcopals have idea who he is.
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2017, 03:21:31 pm »
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While I'm pleased to see conservative groups leaving the mainline churches for more orthodox groups, I have to ask, what took them so long?

Groups like TEC and PCUSA have long since lost the marks of being a true church in the classic Protestant sense of the word. The mainlines have been compromising on much more fundamental issues than gay rights for a long time. If someone like Bishop Spong in TEC or Bill Phipps in the United Church of Canada can deny the Gospel with no sanction, that ought to be a final straw.
That was always my question, too.  I know a few ACNA people, and I asked them, "Oh, so Bishop Spong can deny the Gospel and keep his job back in the early 90s, but you ordain just one gay man, and now it's the end of the world?"


I'm more familiar with Presbyterian history than Episcopal so I'll try to explain it that way:

First, there just aren't a lot of theological conservatives left in the PCUSA. Since the 1930's there have been four denominations formed by PCUSA walkouts, plus a few waves of churches walking out to join established conservative denominations. So it's not that no one cares about the Gospel more than gay rights, its just that most already worship in conservative denominations.

Second, my understanding is that there have been some fairly nasty property fights in the Lutheran, Episcopal and Presbyterian churches, so some congregations are reluctant to leave until something like gay rights acts as the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Lastly, Presbyterians are notoriously schism happy and Episcopals are not. Combine that with the lack of denominational knowledge that Harry mentioned (which btw is certainly not a good thing) and it's harder to get a decent break away movement going.
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2017, 04:53:50 pm »
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I swear the only place I've ever heard about this "Spong" guy is from #triggered religious conservatives on this forum. After quasi-associating with the Episcopals for over 5 years in real life, I've never once heard a thing about him - I doubt many rank-and-file Episcopals have idea who he is.

Spong is a good strawman for conservative Christians despite having been retired for well over a decade now.  Most Episcopalians don't deny the divinity of Christ and Spong never had anywhere near the kind of influence that the Albert Mohlers and Franklin Grahams of Christianity do.
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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2017, 07:16:32 pm »
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I swear the only place I've ever heard about this "Spong" guy is from #triggered religious conservatives on this forum. After quasi-associating with the Episcopals for over 5 years in real life, I've never once heard a thing about him - I doubt many rank-and-file Episcopals have idea who he is.

Spong is a good strawman for conservative Christians despite having been retired for well over a decade now.  Most Episcopalians don't deny the divinity of Christ and Spong never had anywhere near the kind of influence that the Albert Mohlers and Franklin Grahams of Christianity do.

Spong's "inviting the Christians of the world to debate" that set of "theses" he came up with a couple decades ago always gave me kind of the same vibe as Wulfric "endorsing" political candidates in states he doesn't live in.
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Harry
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 10:10:41 pm »
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While I'm pleased to see conservative groups leaving the mainline churches for more orthodox groups, I have to ask, what took them so long?

Groups like TEC and PCUSA have long since lost the marks of being a true church in the classic Protestant sense of the word. The mainlines have been compromising on much more fundamental issues than gay rights for a long time. If someone like Bishop Spong in TEC or Bill Phipps in the United Church of Canada can deny the Gospel with no sanction, that ought to be a final straw.
That was always my question, too.  I know a few ACNA people, and I asked them, "Oh, so Bishop Spong can deny the Gospel and keep his job back in the early 90s, but you ordain just one gay man, and now it's the end of the world?"


I'm more familiar with Presbyterian history than Episcopal so I'll try to explain it that way:

First, there just aren't a lot of theological conservatives left in the PCUSA. Since the 1930's there have been four denominations formed by PCUSA walkouts, plus a few waves of churches walking out to join established conservative denominations. So it's not that no one cares about the Gospel more than gay rights, its just that most already worship in conservative denominations.

Second, my understanding is that there have been some fairly nasty property fights in the Lutheran, Episcopal and Presbyterian churches, so some congregations are reluctant to leave until something like gay rights acts as the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Lastly, Presbyterians are notoriously schism happy and Episcopals are not. Combine that with the lack of denominational knowledge that Harry mentioned (which btw is certainly not a good thing) and it's harder to get a decent break away movement going.

Why? We're talking about some guy who retired from being a bishop (and remember, there are over 100 bishops in the Episcopal Church) 17 years ago and is now dead.

You're expecting people to keep up with every bishop across the whole country, hear about every controversial sentence they say, and then remember it two decades later?
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 10:31:23 pm »
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Spong isn't dead.
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2017, 05:15:48 am »
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While I'm pleased to see conservative groups leaving the mainline churches for more orthodox groups, I have to ask, what took them so long?

Groups like TEC and PCUSA have long since lost the marks of being a true church in the classic Protestant sense of the word. The mainlines have been compromising on much more fundamental issues than gay rights for a long time. If someone like Bishop Spong in TEC or Bill Phipps in the United Church of Canada can deny the Gospel with no sanction, that ought to be a final straw.
That was always my question, too.  I know a few ACNA people, and I asked them, "Oh, so Bishop Spong can deny the Gospel and keep his job back in the early 90s, but you ordain just one gay man, and now it's the end of the world?"


I'm more familiar with Presbyterian history than Episcopal so I'll try to explain it that way:

First, there just aren't a lot of theological conservatives left in the PCUSA. Since the 1930's there have been four denominations formed by PCUSA walkouts, plus a few waves of churches walking out to join established conservative denominations. So it's not that no one cares about the Gospel more than gay rights, its just that most already worship in conservative denominations.

Second, my understanding is that there have been some fairly nasty property fights in the Lutheran, Episcopal and Presbyterian churches, so some congregations are reluctant to leave until something like gay rights acts as the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Lastly, Presbyterians are notoriously schism happy and Episcopals are not. Combine that with the lack of denominational knowledge that Harry mentioned (which btw is certainly not a good thing) and it's harder to get a decent break away movement going.

Why? We're talking about some guy who retired from being a bishop (and remember, there are over 100 bishops in the Episcopal Church) 17 years ago and is now dead.

You're expecting people to keep up with every bishop across the whole country, hear about every controversial sentence they say, and then remember it two decades later?

You keep saying this like conservatives are upset about an after dinner address he gave in 1995. Spong has made a multi-decade career of denying the Gospel, is a very active writer, to this day and TEC still hasn't disciplined him.
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2017, 05:23:11 am »
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As an agnostic with no "horse in this race", I have to say that I have no clue why Spong and people of similar beliefs can't just leave their Church and found their own thing, when it's pretty clear they don't believe in even its most basic tenets. I mean, it's one thing when you're committed to a Church but feel it's misguided on some specific points, but what's the point of still calling yourself Anglican, Presbyterian or whatnot, when you just don't fit the definition in any way?
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2017, 09:43:27 am »
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As an agnostic with no "horse in this race", I have to say that I have no clue why Spong and people of similar beliefs can't just leave their Church and found their own thing, when it's pretty clear they don't believe in even its most basic tenets.
You are making the same argument as the "'murica ain't a socialist country, and if you dun' like it, you can giiit out!" people.
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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2017, 06:18:46 pm »
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As an agnostic with no "horse in this race", I have to say that I have no clue why Spong and people of similar beliefs can't just leave their Church and found their own thing, when it's pretty clear they don't believe in even its most basic tenets.
You are making the same argument as the "'murica ain't a socialist country, and if you dun' like it, you can giiit out!" people.

For a second I was surprised that you'd come to Spong's defense, but then I realized that you probably agree with the "'murica ain't a socialist country, and if you dun' like it, you can giiit out!" people. Tongue

Anyway, States are universalistic political communities whose responsibility is to serve the interests and abide by the will of all their members. While I'm certainly in favor of Churches being responsive to their membership, as private organizations, Churches have the right to set their rules and principles irrespective of individual preferences (within the bounds of the law), and it makes sense for someone so radically dissatisfied with the basic principles of their Church to go their separate way.

(Again, I'm not saying that every disagreement should end up in a departure, far from it - most of my family are Catholics despite disagreeing with basically all of the Church's politics and rarely even attending Mass, and I have nothing against that at all. I was only talking about militant revisionists like who are demanding their own Churches to abandon everything they stand for.)
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Our numbers are dwindling. Our words are confused.
Some of them have been twisted by the enemy
until they can no longer be recognized.

Now what is wrong, or false, in what we have said?
Just some parts, or everything?
On whom can we still rely? Are we survivors, cast
away by the current? Will we be left behind,
no longer understanding anyone and being understood by no one?
Must we rely on luck?

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Harry
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2017, 06:59:23 pm »
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You keep saying this like conservatives are upset about an after dinner address he gave in 1995. Spong has made a multi-decade career of denying the Gospel, is a very active writer, to this day and TEC still hasn't disciplined him.

Because who cares? 20 years ago, less than 1% of Episcopal mid-level leadership had some unusual beliefs. Rank-and-file Episcopals don't care today (and probably didn't then, although I wasn't going to Episcopal mass back then so I can't say for sure) -- only #triggered Internet conservatives do.
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2017, 07:03:20 pm »
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As an agnostic with no "horse in this race", I have to say that I have no clue why Spong and people of similar beliefs can't just leave their Church and found their own thing, when it's pretty clear they don't believe in even its most basic tenets. I mean, it's one thing when you're committed to a Church but feel it's misguided on some specific points, but what's the point of still calling yourself Anglican, Presbyterian or whatnot, when you just don't fit the definition in any way?

Probably because everyone has the attitude of "I'm the one who's right, so they can leave, not me."

I mean, I'd love it if all the minority of Catholics who are anti-gay and anti-abortion rights would leave for some other church, and then the remainder could merge with the Episcopals (minus these weirdo South Cucklinians) into an "all liberal, all the time" One True Church. But that's not happening -- that minority thinks think we should be the ones to leave.
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2017, 08:53:51 pm »
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As an agnostic with no "horse in this race", I have to say that I have no clue why Spong and people of similar beliefs can't just leave their Church and found their own thing, when it's pretty clear they don't believe in even its most basic tenets. I mean, it's one thing when you're committed to a Church but feel it's misguided on some specific points, but what's the point of still calling yourself Anglican, Presbyterian or whatnot, when you just don't fit the definition in any way?

Probably because everyone has the attitude of "I'm the one who's right, so they can leave, not me."

I mean, I'd love it if all the minority of Catholics who are anti-gay and anti-abortion rights would leave for some other church, and then the remainder could merge with the Episcopals (minus these weirdo South Cucklinians) into an "all liberal, all the time" One True Church. But that's not happening -- that minority thinks think we should be the ones to leave.

Christianity is does not revolve around 'Murica.
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« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2017, 08:50:00 pm »
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You keep saying this like conservatives are upset about an after dinner address he gave in 1995. Spong has made a multi-decade career of denying the Gospel, is a very active writer, to this day and TEC still hasn't disciplined him.

Because who cares? 20 years ago, less than 1% of Episcopal mid-level leadership had some unusual beliefs. Rank-and-file Episcopals don't care today (and probably didn't then, although I wasn't going to Episcopal mass back then so I can't say for sure) -- only #triggered Internet conservatives do.

If something is integral to an ideology or religion, you can't remove it without destabilizing the whole thing. If Greenpeace removed a climate change skeptic from their Board, we wouldn't call them narrow minded or #triggered. No, we'd recognize that it is healthy for them to have boundaries and to police them appropriately.

Theism, the resurrection etc are integral parts of Christianity, and the church is right to protect those boundaries. By denying the essentials of the faith, Spong and his ilk step outside even the most generous definitions of orthodoxy. It speaks poorly of the The Episcopal Church if one of their leaders is making a career of denying the essentials of the faith. Either the leadership was too weak, or perhaps it had drifted too far and was more or less apostate.

The faithful in the TEC ought to have an interest in this. Their time and money is going to support the denominational structure, and therefore Spong, and others like him in the hierarchy. If you believe in the Gospel, why wouldn't you be appalled that your offerings are going to support those who preach against it? Now this lack of interest in denominational affairs affects all denominations, but it is particularly saddening in cases like TEC and PCUSA where there are faithful congregants and churches who unknowingly support their opposition.

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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2017, 04:45:14 am »
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Theism, the resurrection etc are integral parts of Christianity,
That's certainly the case for Pauline Christianity - which almost every version of Christianity has been.  However, if you tend to see Jesus mainly as a reformer and philosopher, it wouldn't be unreasonable to call oneself a Christian and yet not be a theist or believe in the resurrection.  The ethical teachings of Christ are valid and attractive regardless of the position one holds concerning Jesus' divinity.
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2017, 05:30:13 am »
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Theism, the resurrection etc are integral parts of Christianity,
That's certainly the case for Pauline Christianity - which almost every version of Christianity has been.  However, if you tend to see Jesus mainly as a reformer and philosopher, it wouldn't be unreasonable to call oneself a Christian and yet not be a theist or believe in the resurrection.  The ethical teachings of Christ are valid and attractive regardless of the position one holds concerning Jesus' divinity.

I think frankly, you are describing two different religions, not the range of belief in one religion. They might have the same founder and a common history, but they have fundamentally different views on the questions religion seeks to answer. It might be useful for an academic to refer to both of them as Christian due to said common history, but Pauline and philosophical Christianity are fundamentally different in a way that Protestantism and Catholicism aren't.
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2017, 04:26:54 pm »
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Theism, the resurrection etc are integral parts of Christianity,
That's certainly the case for Pauline Christianity - which almost every version of Christianity has been.  However, if you tend to see Jesus mainly as a reformer and philosopher, it wouldn't be unreasonable to call oneself a Christian and yet not be a theist or believe in the resurrection.  The ethical teachings of Christ are valid and attractive regardless of the position one holds concerning Jesus' divinity.

I think frankly, you are describing two different religions, not the range of belief in one religion. They might have the same founder and a common history, but they have fundamentally different views on the questions religion seeks to answer. It might be useful for an academic to refer to both of them as Christian due to said common history, but Pauline and philosophical Christianity are fundamentally different in a way that Protestantism and Catholicism aren't.

Quoting a paper I wrote last year, for academic purposes "I use 'Christian' to indicate things that a Pauline confessional theologian of average broadmindedness would consider Christian, and 'para-Christian' to indicate things that more or less plausibly claim to be Christian or that a methodologically secular historian or sociologist of religion would consider Christian but a Pauline confessional theologian wouldn’t necessarily."
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Yeah that's right, I said Siam. Why don't you go tell Pedro Martinez
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