is homeschooling child abuse?
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Author Topic: is homeschooling child abuse?  (Read 4615 times)
tik 🪀✨
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« on: March 31, 2017, 07:39:10 AM »

is depriving children of the social frameworks in which to navigate modern society and taking from them the shared cultural upbringing of their peers a really good idea that makes you freedom yourself?
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2017, 07:48:50 AM »

I don't know, good Tik, in today's world kids that go to school are pretty socially effed up as well, so I'm not sure I'd call it child abuse, but it's just not a good idea.  I can't fathom the idea growing up in an age where there was no such animal and honestly there was no such thing when my daughter was young.  I wouldn't try it, personally.
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angus
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2017, 09:45:35 AM »

No.

Child abuse is basically mistreatment, either physical or psychological, of one's child.  Homeschooling in general does not fit that description, although there may be some cases in which a child is both homeschooled and abused.  That's another matter.

I've known several people who homeschooled their children.  The first I met was a physics professor who was dissatisfied with the public schools.  His wife quit her job and raised their son, who went on to have a successful career in electrical engineering and now has a family of his own.  Another woman I met not long after we moved to Pennsylvania had five children, the last three of whom were homeschooled.  Her first three attended a public school, but the third one, a daughter, had extremely poor vision.  It was causing problems in school.  She became frustrated when the public school could not effectively accommodate the child and decided to homeschool her.  This woman was so impressed at the quality and high standards of the homeschool materials that she decided to homeschool the subsequent children.  I've met a few others as well.  They all cite public school problems, mostly bad teachers, bullying, or just a lack of academic rigor in the public schools.  

I've also known a couple of university students who were homeschooled.  As a rule, they have performed well.  One in particular will graduate in May with a B.S.Ed. double major in physics and chemistry and a certification to teach in PA high schools.  He is trying to line up a job locally and particularly wants to work in the district where we live.  I'd be glad to have him as my son's science teacher.

I have also volunteered at some local venues for special events for homeschooled children.  Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, for example, hosts an annual science demonstration fair for homeschooled children.  I have twice participated.  Once as a presenter and once as a leader.

Homeschooling is obviously not to be taken lightly.  It is a huge commitment.  I would not do it.  I'm a big fan of good public schools and I have always wanted my son to attend public school.  Sure, he'll be bullied on occasion, perhaps get into fisticuffs, get his heart broken by shallow girls, and, worst of all, have to put up with some unpleasant teachers.  As he gets older he'll be invited to do all sorts of awful things probably involving drugs and loose women, but this is part of the package. I also chose not to send him to private school.  I'm sure I could find a private school with higher academic standards than his public school, and I'm certain that my wife and I would have high academic standards had we chosen to homeschool my son, but there's more to public education that just reading, writing, and arithmetic.  When you attend a large public school, you have to learn to deal with the public.  There are jocks and nerds and bullies and drugpushers and whores and sadistic teachers and the occasional firearm.  It's a microcosm of real life.  It's training for real life.  One needs to learn to deal with one's customers, few of whom will have attended private school or home school.  So public school, warts and all, offers the best advantage for my son, or so I think.  That said, I respect those who decide upon homeschooling or private schooling for their children.  

I'd argue that it is the opposite of child abuse.  It is extreme helicopter parenting.  It is undertaken with good intentions.  It may not offer the benefit of having a good science lab to work in, but arrangements can be made for laboratory exercises.  It may not offer the benefit of forcing a student to get along with students from all socioeconomic strata, and with teachers of varying degrees of vengefulness, but opportunities for social skill development can be created with some effort as well.  (Certainly the family with five children has children who must learn to share and to settle arguments.)  As long as the parents take it seriously, homeschooling can provide an excellent education.  
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Beet
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« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2017, 09:54:49 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
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Blue3
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2017, 10:00:15 AM »

My cousin has been "homeschooled" after having a nervous breakdown in 9th grade, and that part of our family definitely isn't rich.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2017, 10:09:10 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.

You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.
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Beet
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2017, 10:10:45 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2017, 10:22:26 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

Homeschooling necessitates a parent teaching? There are a lot of weird arrangements out there. And considering they are primarily rural or religious, there are likely plenty of poor homeschoolers from who knows where that actually do have a parent teaching. Not everyone leads a modern urban life where you have to work outside the property so many hours a day. The concept of a rich person doing it seems far stranger.
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Beet
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2017, 10:28:53 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

Homeschooling necessitates a parent teaching? There are a lot of weird arrangements out there. And considering they are primarily rural or religious, there are likely plenty of poor homeschoolers from who knows where that actually do have a parent teaching. Not everyone leads a modern urban life where you have to work outside the property so many hours a day. The concept of a rich person doing it seems far stranger.

Rural and religious does not necessarily mean poor. Farmers who live off their own land these days are probably wealthier than the average urban worker.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017, 10:34:15 AM »
« Edited: March 31, 2017, 11:10:01 AM by Grumpy Horrible Deplorable »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

They can, and Momma or Papa can also work from home along with their homeschooling duties.  The rich don't need homeschooling, Beet, they can send their kids to great schools where their every need is catered to and where they're pampered.  Seriously, rid yourself of the notion that the privileged do things themselves.
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Blue3
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 11:17:53 AM »
« Edited: March 31, 2017, 11:20:26 AM by Blue3 »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

For my cousin's case, it means self-teaching. Neither of her parents home-schooled her. The state told them the requirements and tests that must be passed to advance to the next "grade."



And yes, plenty of people are middle-class on one income. I know people who the mom of 3 kids was just a cable technican, and the dad stayed at home. I know of a prison guard who's wife was laid off, also 3 kids, and she decided to stay at home even after unemployment insurance ended. I know someone else with 2 kids where the mom didn't work until the youngest turned 6, and the dad was computer troubleshooter/technician. Etc.
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Beet
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2017, 11:23:46 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

For my cousin's case, it means self-teaching. Neither of her parents home-schooled her. The state told them the requirements and tests that must be passed to advance to the next "grade."



And yes, plenty of people are middle-class on one income. I know people who the mom of 3 kids was just a cable technican, and the dad stayed at home. I know of a prison guard who's wife was laid off, also 3 kids, and she decided to stay at home even after unemployment insurance ended. I know someone else with 2 kids where the mom didn't work until the youngest turned 6, and the dad was computer troubleshooter/technician. Etc.

How much do these people make? Where do they live? The one family I know on one income is where the husband is a doctor. I know that if I had to support myself and two or more other people on my income, which is above average, it would be stretched tight. I cannot afford to buy a single family house in DC, that is for sure.
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Blue3
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« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2017, 11:26:02 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

For my cousin's case, it means self-teaching. Neither of her parents home-schooled her. The state told them the requirements and tests that must be passed to advance to the next "grade."



And yes, plenty of people are middle-class on one income. I know people who the mom of 3 kids was just a cable technican, and the dad stayed at home. I know of a prison guard who's wife was laid off, also 3 kids, and she decided to stay at home even after unemployment insurance ended. I know someone else with 2 kids where the mom didn't work until the youngest turned 6, and the dad was computer troubleshooter/technician. Etc.

How much do these people make? Where do they live? The one family I know on one income is where the husband is a doctor. I know that if I had to support myself and two or more other people on my income, which is above average, it would be stretched tight. I cannot afford to buy a single family house in DC, that is for sure.
First case: $45,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Second case: $40,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Third case, $50,000, suburban/rural-ish Connecticut.
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angus
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« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2017, 11:30:17 AM »
« Edited: March 31, 2017, 11:32:30 AM by angus »


Is that really known?  I ask because everyone I've met who homeschooled his or her child lives in the suburbs, not particularly urban, but not rural either, and they usually worked in the city.  As far as the religious part, I don't know.  I didn't discuss religion with any of these people.  It just didn't come up.  

I was curious so I started digging around.  I've found a study that divides homeschooling families into (a) urban, (b) urban-suburban (bordering an urban area), (c) suburban, (d) suburban-rural (bordering a rural area), and (e) rural areas.  They have an even distribution across them.  Then again, they studied 250 families and did not explain how they were chosen.  They may have gone out of their way to find an even distribution so that doesn't answer the question.  They also mention religion and religious diversity but it isn't clear how they came up with that set either.  This is from Hanna, L.G., Homeschooling Education: Longitudinal Study of Methods, Materials, and Curricula.  Education and Urban Society 1(23) 2011.

In another study [Bauman, K. J. Home schooling in the United States: Trends and
Characteristics
. Education Policy Analysis Archives, 10(26) 2002] it was estimated that there are about 850 thousand home-schooled children in the United States.  That one is a little dated as it was published about fifteen years ago, but it also does not support your contention that they are primarily rural or religious.  It does, however, support Beet's contention that they are able to afford to have at least one parent not in the labor force.  (Studied, not spectulated here:  One parent not in the labor force more common among homeschoolers than in the general public.  Among homeschooled children 30% come from families in which both parents work.  Among regular school students 75% come from families in which both parents work.)  The study also shows that the higher the income, the greater the likelihood of homeschooling.  They divide household income up into four brackets, and the percent rises monotonically and significantly with each bracket.  

Homeschooled children also tend to be more white (76% vs 64%) and less black (8% vs 16%) than the general public also.  Perhaps most significantly, they are much more likely to be from families with three or more children in the household than the general student population.  This ties in with some of my conclusions also.  If you have a single child, homeschooling really neglects the social skill aspect of public schooling, but if you have three or more, then it may be more of a realistic consideration that they're not missing out on that aspect as much.

There is a gender gap, however:  public school ratio is about 1-to-1 female to male, whereas the homeschool population is about 54% female to 46% male.  

They didn't have specific ratios of "religious" versus "non-religious" students in regular versus home school, but on their questionnaire, 33% of respondents did cite religion in one way or another as one of their reasons for choosing homeschool.  It's interesting, but it really doesn't support your assertion that they are "primarily rural and religious."

No offense, but I think you're making that up.  It seems, however, that you're not alone.  Here's a quote from Bauman:  "While some authors have described a division between religiously-motivated and academically-motivated home schoolers, this research finds more support for a divide based on attitude towards regular schools."  I think it's an especially interesting finding not only in light of your assertion, but because I've noticed people on this forum make that claim in other threads although I have personally never noticed that to be the case.  The homeschoolers I know are neither particularly rural nor (as far as I know) particularly religious.





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Beet
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2017, 11:38:00 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

For my cousin's case, it means self-teaching. Neither of her parents home-schooled her. The state told them the requirements and tests that must be passed to advance to the next "grade."



And yes, plenty of people are middle-class on one income. I know people who the mom of 3 kids was just a cable technican, and the dad stayed at home. I know of a prison guard who's wife was laid off, also 3 kids, and she decided to stay at home even after unemployment insurance ended. I know someone else with 2 kids where the mom didn't work until the youngest turned 6, and the dad was computer troubleshooter/technician. Etc.

How much do these people make? Where do they live? The one family I know on one income is where the husband is a doctor. I know that if I had to support myself and two or more other people on my income, which is above average, it would be stretched tight. I cannot afford to buy a single family house in DC, that is for sure.
First case: $45,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Second case: $40,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Third case, $50,000, suburban/rural-ish Connecticut.

A person making $50,000 a year and paying 25% tax has $37,500 annual take home pay... That much would not be enough to qualify as middle class here. One big difference between Connecticut and where I live is home price. In Connecticut, the average home price $243,000, which translates into about $14,880 payments on a 30-year mortgage. In the DC area it is about twice that. A person making $50,000 annually here would be spending about 80% of her take home income on the average home. Obviously out of reach.
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Blue3
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2017, 11:43:58 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

For my cousin's case, it means self-teaching. Neither of her parents home-schooled her. The state told them the requirements and tests that must be passed to advance to the next "grade."



And yes, plenty of people are middle-class on one income. I know people who the mom of 3 kids was just a cable technican, and the dad stayed at home. I know of a prison guard who's wife was laid off, also 3 kids, and she decided to stay at home even after unemployment insurance ended. I know someone else with 2 kids where the mom didn't work until the youngest turned 6, and the dad was computer troubleshooter/technician. Etc.

How much do these people make? Where do they live? The one family I know on one income is where the husband is a doctor. I know that if I had to support myself and two or more other people on my income, which is above average, it would be stretched tight. I cannot afford to buy a single family house in DC, that is for sure.
First case: $45,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Second case: $40,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Third case, $50,000, suburban/rural-ish Connecticut.

A person making $50,000 a year and paying 25% tax has $37,500 annual take home pay... That much would not be enough to qualify as middle class here. One big difference between Connecticut and where I live is home price. In Connecticut, the average home price $243,000, which translates into about $14,880 payments on a 30-year mortgage. In the DC area it is about twice that. A person making $50,000 annually here would be spending about 80% of her take home income on the average home. Obviously out of reach.

Household income of $50,000 is too high to be "middle class" to you? Especially when you have 2 kids and a spouse?

Middle class is $20,000-120,000/year per household to me.

There's still my other examples too.



And why are you implying that if it can't happen with that income in DC (though I bet it could), then it doesn't count?
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Beet
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2017, 11:48:28 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

For my cousin's case, it means self-teaching. Neither of her parents home-schooled her. The state told them the requirements and tests that must be passed to advance to the next "grade."



And yes, plenty of people are middle-class on one income. I know people who the mom of 3 kids was just a cable technican, and the dad stayed at home. I know of a prison guard who's wife was laid off, also 3 kids, and she decided to stay at home even after unemployment insurance ended. I know someone else with 2 kids where the mom didn't work until the youngest turned 6, and the dad was computer troubleshooter/technician. Etc.

How much do these people make? Where do they live? The one family I know on one income is where the husband is a doctor. I know that if I had to support myself and two or more other people on my income, which is above average, it would be stretched tight. I cannot afford to buy a single family house in DC, that is for sure.
First case: $45,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Second case: $40,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Third case, $50,000, suburban/rural-ish Connecticut.

A person making $50,000 a year and paying 25% tax has $37,500 annual take home pay... That much would not be enough to qualify as middle class here. One big difference between Connecticut and where I live is home price. In Connecticut, the average home price $243,000, which translates into about $14,880 payments on a 30-year mortgage. In the DC area it is about twice that. A person making $50,000 annually here would be spending about 80% of her take home income on the average home. Obviously out of reach.

Household income of $50,000 is too high to be "middle class" to you? Especially when you have 2 kids and a spouse?

Middle class is $20,000-120,000/year per household to me.

And why are you implying that if it can't happen with that income in DC (though I bet it could), then it doesn't count?

No I'm saying it's too low to be middle class. Your other examples are even lower. $20,000 is not middle class, that's poor.

I'm just relating my own experience. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it's unusual and unlikely. The average family household making $50,000 in the DC area is not middle class.
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angus
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2017, 11:49:54 AM »

Here's a more recent study:  https://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2016096

They find that about 1.7 million children were homeschooled in 2012.  Not surprising since the earlier papers said that homeschooling was becoming more trendy starting in the 90s and increasing since then.

They divide into four categories for local population.  Here they are along with percentages of homeschooled children in their study.

City   28
Suburban  34
Town  7
Rural  31

Other interesting tidbits:  

Parental educational attainments generally range up to post-graduate degree, with the major part (39%) being college graduates.  (2% had less than high school degree, 20% had only HS degree, 30% had some college or Voc/Tec degree.)  So they clearly come from all educational strata.  

They are overwhelmingly white (83%)

they find no significant difference in sex (51% female vs 49% male which is within margin of error.)

Poor:  11%
Non-poor:  89%
(their footnote for that reads as follows:  "Students are considered poor if living in households with incomes below the poverty threshold, which is a dollar amount determined by the federal government to meet the household’s needs, given its size and composition. Income is collected in categories in the survey,rather than as an exact amount, and therefore the poverty measures used in this report are approximations of poverty.")

No mention of religion in this one.


Most significantly, none of these peer-reviewed papers mentions the word "abuse."

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Blue3
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2017, 11:54:38 AM »

It is something for the economically privileged.
You mean middle class, right?  Because every home school application I notarize is for the middle class.

They can be middle class on one income?

For my cousin's case, it means self-teaching. Neither of her parents home-schooled her. The state told them the requirements and tests that must be passed to advance to the next "grade."



And yes, plenty of people are middle-class on one income. I know people who the mom of 3 kids was just a cable technican, and the dad stayed at home. I know of a prison guard who's wife was laid off, also 3 kids, and she decided to stay at home even after unemployment insurance ended. I know someone else with 2 kids where the mom didn't work until the youngest turned 6, and the dad was computer troubleshooter/technician. Etc.

How much do these people make? Where do they live? The one family I know on one income is where the husband is a doctor. I know that if I had to support myself and two or more other people on my income, which is above average, it would be stretched tight. I cannot afford to buy a single family house in DC, that is for sure.
First case: $45,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Second case: $40,000, suburban Rhode Island.
Third case, $50,000, suburban/rural-ish Connecticut.

A person making $50,000 a year and paying 25% tax has $37,500 annual take home pay... That much would not be enough to qualify as middle class here. One big difference between Connecticut and where I live is home price. In Connecticut, the average home price $243,000, which translates into about $14,880 payments on a 30-year mortgage. In the DC area it is about twice that. A person making $50,000 annually here would be spending about 80% of her take home income on the average home. Obviously out of reach.

Household income of $50,000 is too high to be "middle class" to you? Especially when you have 2 kids and a spouse?

Middle class is $20,000-120,000/year per household to me.

And why are you implying that if it can't happen with that income in DC (though I bet it could), then it doesn't count?

No I'm saying it's too low to be middle class. Your other examples are even lower. $20,000 is not middle class, that's poor.

I'm just relating my own experience. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it's unusual and unlikely. The average family household making $50,000 in the DC area is not middle class.

In the cases of homeschooling I know, this is the average income.
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2017, 12:05:13 PM »

To: angus on the first post...
well, I suppose that depends on how you define primarily....I am also seeing that 33% statistic in an article that seems to make note that it is the single biggest motivation so that would seem to make it a solid plurality.

And while this doesn't show religion to be the biggest motivation, a majority seem to cite it as a reason, so it seems to be at least a factor in the decision process



You absolutely bring a solid point with the rural-urban divide though. My cognitive bias is definitely showing there as my experiences with that are totally the opposite. Very interesting stuff - will most certainly read into that a bit more this weekend. I suspect my definition of rural may be too harsh as well, but that still wouldn't mesh with my preconceptions.


How much do these people make? Where do they live? The one family I know on one income is where the husband is a doctor.

It also doesn't necessarily have to be one income either. My early childhood was one parent with two incomes because 'that's just the way it was back then' and it wasn't permitted to be any other way.

Also, re: farmers, "these days" might not be the best way to qualify that statement considering the current state of agriculture, but I'm willing to drop that point on the basis of angus' citation.

If you think 50k is low, I don't understand your definition of economic privilege.
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angus
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2017, 12:08:39 PM »

Sprout, the studies all have slightly different numbers, but there just doesn't seem to be an overwhelmingly clear conclusion here that they are primarily rural and religious.  I wouldn't have made anything of it except that you're not the first to have made such claims on this forum.

To the OP:

A couple of other studies have cropped up, these involving academic prowess of home-schooled children compared to their publicly-schooled peers:

Noel, Amber; Stark, Patrick; & Redford, Jeremy. (2013). Washington, DC: National Center for Education Statistics, Institute of Education Sciences, U.S. Department of Education: The home-educated typically score 15 to 30 percentile points above public-school students on standardized academic achievement tests.

Brian D. Ray, Journal of College Admission, 2004, No. 185, 5-11: Black homeschool students to be scoring 23 to 42 percentile points above Black public school students.

I'm very sorry, but it just cannot smell the child abuse here.  Is it just me?  Am I missing something?

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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2017, 02:20:22 PM »

I know it's a hard notion to comprehend for American liberals, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why parents would want to homeschool their children, especially considering what an awful job the education system does at actually providing an education. Of course it should be tightly overseen by the State to avoid abuse, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad thing.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2017, 03:10:02 PM »

I know it's a hard notion to comprehend for American liberals, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why parents would want to homeschool their children, especially considering what an awful job the education system does at actually providing an education.
Yeah, this.
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Beet
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2017, 03:14:23 PM »

I know it's a hard notion to comprehend for American liberals, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why parents would want to homeschool their children, especially considering what an awful job the education system does at actually providing an education. Of course it should be tightly overseen by the State to avoid abuse, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad thing.

Who's a liberal? You're just as much as a liberal as I am, and you're complaining about the "education system" yet oppose school vouchers. I'd much rather kids go to affordable private schools that work than the inefficient homeschooling system that a lot of us can't afford.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2017, 03:21:29 PM »

I know it's a hard notion to comprehend for American liberals, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why parents would want to homeschool their children, especially considering what an awful job the education system does at actually providing an education. Of course it should be tightly overseen by the State to avoid abuse, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad thing.

Who's a liberal? You're just as much as a liberal as I am, and you're complaining about the "education system" yet oppose school vouchers. I'd much rather kids go to affordable private schools that work than the inefficient homeschooling system that a lot of us can't afford.

I'd dispute being a "liberal" (I used to think the label was worth reclaiming by the left, but not anymore), but whatever.

I think there is a way to do school vouchers right in a way that actually benefits low-income families, but I hope you will agree that it's not the DeVos way.
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