is homeschooling child abuse?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The socialization angle is an important one in assailing homeschooling as a practice, though what I have seen in public schools makes me wonder how beneficial it actually is to be in that kind of an environment. My attitude would be that it is not child abuse, though it could definitely be used to enable such ills.

[tik 🪀✨]

glad to have established that a clear majority of Atlas users support abusing children by forcing them to disengage with their peers and live a life of cold isolation when learning to build social networks face to face is a vital component still in development

it is funny to note how people equate abuse with future failure - while it certainly makes integrating into society more difficult, it doesn't necessarily make future outcomes worse. sexual assault victims can go on to lead perfectly normal, healthy lives, too. but the scars remain.

parents are perfectly capable of helping their children with their homework and being teachers in that way after they have come home from school. they are also able to influence public curriculum if they so choose.

there is nothing admirable about possibly handicapping a child's socialisation skillset

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I was in band with homeschoolers from 7th to 11th grade and have had friends outside of such interactions who were homeschooled. Based on those experiences, I fail to see how they are any different than your average children, who are comprised of the British to the neurotic. They might actually be far better off. I'm sure it was my childhood experiences with society that firmed the bedrock of my warped perception of it.

[Blue3]

glad to have established that a clear majority of Atlas users support abusing children by forcing them to disengage with their peers and live a life of cold isolation when learning to build social networks face to face is a vital component still in development

it is funny to note how people equate abuse with future failure - while it certainly makes integrating into society more difficult, it doesn't necessarily make future outcomes worse. sexual assault victims can go on to lead perfectly normal, healthy lives, too. but the scars remain.

parents are perfectly capable of helping their children with their homework and being teachers in that way after they have come home from school. they are also able to influence public curriculum if they so choose.

there is nothing admirable about possibly handicapping a child's socialisation skillset

Socialization can happen outside school. In fact, with homeschooling, it's probably more likely to happen outside school with the more flexible schedule.

Homeschooling might also be best for children who are naturally introverted. Introversion is a good thing, not a disease to be stamped-out like left-handedness.

Or for those like my cousin, who developed such social anxiety in high school she would have dropped out completely if not for homeschooling.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Gotta love those liberals. "You can be whatever you want and no one should dictate your life choices... but if you're a housewife that means you're a reactionary gender traitor brainwashed by patriarchy, and if you homeschool your children that means you're an abusive parent."

These are the days I actually feel like I have more in common with Cathcon and RFayette.

[DC Al Fine]

I know it's a hard notion to comprehend for American liberals, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why parents would want to homeschool their children, especially considering what an awful job the education system does at actually providing an education. Of course it should be tightly overseen by the State to avoid abuse, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad thing.

Who's a liberal? You're just as much as a liberal as I am, and you're complaining about the "education system" yet oppose school vouchers. I'd much rather kids go to affordable private schools that work than the inefficient homeschooling system that a lot of us can't afford.

I'd dispute being a "liberal" (I used to think the label was worth reclaiming by the left, but not anymore), but whatever.

I think there is a way to do school vouchers right in a way that actually benefits low-income families, but I hope you will agree that it's not the DeVos way.

What would that mean specifically?

For all the conservative talk about choice in healthcare, education seems more ripe for disruption, so I'm curious on what a non-conservative version of vouchers would look like.

Gotta love those liberals. "You can be whatever you want and no one should dictate your life choices... but if you're a housewife that means you're a reactionary gender traitor brainwashed by patriarchy, and if you homeschool your children that means you're an abusive parent."

These are the days I actually feel like I have more in common with Cathcon and RFayette.

My wife complains about this a lot vis a vis feminism: "they are the sort of people who think women can only find meaning in acting like boorish men"

[Filuwaúrdjan]

No, because child abuse should not be trivialised for cheap point scoring. But homeschooling is undeniably a bad idea from a pedagogical perspective.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What would that mean specifically?

For all the conservative talk about choice in healthcare, education seems more ripe for disruption, so I'm curious on what a non-conservative version of vouchers would look like.

For one thing, there ought to be some degree of means-testing for school vouchers - nothing too narrow, since draconian means-testing tends to have a regressive impact, but enough to prevent the hyperprivileged from attending their elite schools at the State's expense. In addition, the schools that qualify for State subsidies ought to meet a series of stringent criteria, both in terms of curriculum (they ought to provide an education at least on par with the public standards, and not try to indoctrinate children into this and that totalizing worldview) and in terms of the profit motive (ideally, there shouldn't be any, but America being what it is I think allowing a little bit might be the only way to get the system working).

[Associate Justice PiT]

Gotta love those liberals. "You can be whatever you want and no one should dictate your life choices... but if you're a housewife that means you're a reactionary gender traitor brainwashed by patriarchy, and if you homeschool your children that means you're an abusive parent."

These are the days I actually feel like I have more in common with Cathcon and RFayette.

     My mom was active as a second-wave feminist back in the 1960s and 1970s, and for her the ideas of having control over your own life and the freedom to choose as you like are critically important. Women's independence is important to me, but I am also concerned by the trends that you observe here. It's almost as if being "equal" is more important for some people than being "free" is. This article seems relevant...and utterly terrifying.

[Virginiá]

Given the current field I work in, I've seen enough to give me an unfavorable opinion of this practice. I've seen kids who really excelled and turned out alright, and I've seen even more who were undoubtedly smart but seemed poorly socialized, and then I've seen kids who would have been better off overall in an actual school. I'm not against the idea in principle, but there needs to be more rules that cover non-academic performance.

Socialization can happen outside school. In fact, with homeschooling, it's probably more likely to happen outside school with the more flexible schedule.

And parents have to make that happen for younger children, something I'm not sure I trust will occur consistently. Plus, the older you get, the harder it can be for some people to fit in as a stranger. It's easier in school when everyone is there for a reason and as a result end up mingling quite a bit. What you are saying here might be one of the "best case" scenarios.

Homeschooling might also be best for children who are naturally introverted. Introversion is a good thing, not a disease to be stamped-out like left-handedness.

I'm sure it would work for some people - not everything is black and white, but then you have to have a way to know exactly when a child might benefit most from homeschooling and whether or not the child's family can adequately provide for such.

[DC Al Fine]

I know it's a hard notion to comprehend for American liberals, but there are perfectly legitimate reasons why parents would want to homeschool their children, especially considering what an awful job the education system does at actually providing an education. Of course it should be tightly overseen by the State to avoid abuse, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a bad thing.

Who's a liberal? You're just as much as a liberal as I am, and you're complaining about the "education system" yet oppose school vouchers. I'd much rather kids go to affordable private schools that work than the inefficient homeschooling system that a lot of us can't afford.

It's actually not that unaffordable if you have a lot of kids. I have a friend who has four children and makes ~$50k US/year. Between payroll taxes, benefit clawbacks, and lost tax credits, his wife faces a marginal tax rate of over 60% should she go back to work, and that is before the cost of childcare is considered. At that point homeschooling is only marginally more expensive than public school.

[DC Al Fine]

No, because child abuse should not be trivialised for cheap point scoring. But homeschooling is undeniably a bad idea from a pedagogical perspective.

Is it a bad idea as it is currently practiced though? Homeschoolers tend to do quite well academically. Obviously a lot of this is due to self-selection, but have there been any studies indicating that the homeschooled children of driven parents do significantly worse than the publicly schooled kids of driven parents? The biggest problem with homeschooling in my opinion is that it isn't scaleable, not academics or socialization. If you have money or are hardcore involved in your child's education it works fine, but most people can't spare the time or money.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

glad to have established that a clear majority of Atlas users support abusing children by forcing them to disengage with their peers and live a life of cold isolation when learning to build social networks face to face is a vital component still in development

it is funny to note how people equate abuse with future failure - while it certainly makes integrating into society more difficult, it doesn't necessarily make future outcomes worse. sexual assault victims can go on to lead perfectly normal, healthy lives, too. but the scars remain.

parents are perfectly capable of helping their children with their homework and being teachers in that way after they have come home from school. they are also able to influence public curriculum if they so choose.

there is nothing admirable about possibly handicapping a child's socialisation skillset

Tik, I think we all agree that homeschooling takes away from socialization and that' it's important for the child to know how to interact with others, but we just don't go so far as to call it abuse.  I hope home schooled kids play sports join clubs and other activities....that would help offset the academic isolation.

[DC Al Fine]

What would that mean specifically?

For all the conservative talk about choice in healthcare, education seems more ripe for disruption, so I'm curious on what a non-conservative version of vouchers would look like.

For one thing, there ought to be some degree of means-testing for school vouchers - nothing too narrow, since draconian means-testing tends to have a regressive impact, but enough to prevent the hyperprivileged from attending their elite schools at the State's expense. In addition, the schools that qualify for State subsidies ought to meet a series of stringent criteria, both in terms of curriculum (they ought to provide an education at least on par with the public standards, and not try to indoctrinate children into this and that totalizing worldview) and in terms of the profit motive (ideally, there shouldn't be any, but America being what it is I think allowing a little bit might be the only way to get the system working).

Could you clarify your definitions of "stringent criteria" and "totalizing worldview"?

I think we're more or less in agreement, but those two phrases are sort of like the term "hate group". Most people like the idea of restricting them but definitions vary wildly and could be abused by a malevolent government.

Gotta love those liberals. "You can be whatever you want and no one should dictate your life choices... but if you're a housewife that means you're a reactionary gender traitor brainwashed by patriarchy, and if you homeschool your children that means you're an abusive parent."

These are the days I actually feel like I have more in common with Cathcon and RFayette.

     My mom was active as a second-wave feminist back in the 1960s and 1970s, and for her the ideas of having control over your own life and the freedom to choose as you like are critically important. Women's independence is important to me, but I am also concerned by the trends that you observe here. It's almost as if being "equal" is more important for some people than being "free" is. This article seems relevant...and utterly terrifying.

How would that even work? Would they have to drag the most obstinate women off to prison if fines don't work?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

All the people I've known who were homeschooled were normal, in control of their lives, and did just fine in social settings. They were a little naive, but that's hardly indicative of abuse. Maybe that's unrepresentative, I don't know.

[dead0man]

That's been my anecdotal experience too.  Anybody that would suffer abuse in a home school environment is likely going to be suffer abuse from his family no matter where they get their education.

[Barnes]

No, because child abuse should not be trivialised for cheap point scoring. But homeschooling is undeniably a bad idea from a pedagogical perspective.

Al's point should have settled this particular line of questioning. Obviously, if someone was a child abuser, the fact that they also homeschooled their child would be irrelevant.

Now in the mind of a proper debate on pedagogy, as with most things in everyday life, their is no absolute edifice which you can easily stand up against. I will say that homeschoolers in the American South might have it better off than some kids sent to suburban/rural private schools. Many of which were established in the '70s to overtly oppose integration.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Could you clarify your definitions of "stringent criteria" and "totalizing worldview"?

I think we're more or less in agreement, but those two phrases are sort of like the term "hate group". Most people like the idea of restricting them but definitions vary wildly and could be abused by a malevolent government.

I can provide some answer by telling you about my high school. I attended a private, Catholic high school under contract with the French State. Its teachers are salaried by the State and enjoy the same privileges and status as public school teachers, and the school receives additional subsidies. It's not run for profit (although it's doing pretty well financially). The classes taught us based on the public curriculum, using the same textbooks as a public school might, and prepared us to take the same national exam that every French student takes, although individual teachers enjoyed some discretion in how they ran their class (as is inevitable). However, we also had an hour a week of mandatory "religious reflection" where the same teachers would come in and introduce us to some basic catechism. Part of it was traditional Catholic stuff, but it also included giving voice to leaders of other religious community (I remember a Jewish intellectual giving us a fascinating lecture on Judaism that still makes me wish I knew more about it), and discussing hot-button social issues. I actually had a lot of fun defending abortion rights and euthanasia against both fellow students and teachers. I was definitely in the minority, but I was never personally attacked or excluded for my views (I think this explains why I'm so baffled by how personally people take politics in the US - most of my friends were people I had next to nothing in common with politically). We were also encouraged to participate in religious extracurricular activities, but nothing mandatory.

I am incredibly grateful to this school. Middle school had largely been a disaster for me, and at 14 I was completely disengaged with schoolwork. This is the first educational institution that I have actively enjoyed attending, as opposed to seeing it as a chore. It's the first place I made real friends in (only two, but still). I don't think I would ever have gotten to where I am now without it. So I am all for encouraging stuff like this. The only problem I have here is that it wasn't exactly affordable to the average family, so I would definitely support efforts to make this kind of education more affordable.

Now, when we are talking about indoctrinating students, I'm reminded of this far-right Catholic network, which, among other things, taught revisionist WW2 history, and where middle schoolers were caught on tape singing antisemitic songs. Not only should no public money go to these things, but I support efforts to actively shut them down.

[tik 🪀✨]

for the record I was just having a bit of a drunken troll (the fact that nobody seemed to think the way I was speaking in this thread was especially out of character or something says a lot about me, maybe, sadly). I will admit the "child abuse" angle was in wildly bad taste.

my brother was homeschooled for a little while in high school because he was having trouble with things, and my sister homeschools all of her children. actually I made better friends with the other kids in my school who moved from being homeschooled into class with us. some of them were socially stunted (so was/am I, so), but they've gone on to be just as normal or otherwise as anyone else.

in general I do think it is a bad idea, however.

[Antonio the Sixth]

(the fact that nobody seemed to think the way I was speaking in this thread was especially out of character or something says a lot about me, maybe, sadly)

All it says is that you don't post very much.

[Vosem]

Basically in agreement with those who have said that, while "child abuse" is a very strong term and homeschooling may be the solution in some cases, it needs very, very strict oversight to ensure that homeschooled children do actually learn, and in general the experience of going to a school (especially a public school) provides a good tutorial on what life is actually like.

As someone who had very few friends prior to high school and who then made virtually all of the friends I do have through the process of going to a public high school, I find the idea of parents choosing homeschooling for a student for whom going to some sort of school is an option to be a horrifying one. But that's just me. Students who I knew who were homeschooled were those who first tried attending a public high school and were unable to handle the environment, for whatever reason; in many cases they did have issues interacting socially. The high school may not have been a healthy environment for them but I'm not under the impression that being homeschooled helped very much either.

In summary, voted 'nuh uh', but in all honesty I think homeschooling should be reserved for very extreme cases and that in current society it should be curtailed.

[Barnes]

(the fact that nobody seemed to think the way I was speaking in this thread was especially out of character or something says a lot about me, maybe, sadly)

All it says is that you don't post very much.

As someone who just showed up after being off this site for over a year, I heartily agree. Don't worry about it. The choice of terminology is always critical, though...

In summary, voted 'nuh uh', but in all honesty I think homeschooling should be reserved for very extreme cases and that in current society it should be curtailed.

I thoroughly agree, Vosem. Every case can be distinct, but in general, attempts to indoctrinate children at home or save them from the outside world should be discouraged.

[angus]

I was just having a bit of a drunken troll

That's the best kind of trolling. 

[Barnes]

I was just having a bit of a drunken troll

That's the best kind of trolling. 

Reminiscent of the great Duke drunken love-ins of old.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Stuns a child's emotional and societal growth. It's a perfect way to produce socially handicapped.

For some years I had something known as "individual learning" due to health reasons. It wasn't homeschooling per se, but I had individual lessons with a teacher, and it certainly haven't helped me in the wider world. In fact, I can feel nothing but contempt for a parent going for homeschooling on her or his initiative.

Not an abuse per se, but harmful.