Why is Kaliningrad not part of Lithuania (or Poland)?
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  Why is Kaliningrad not part of Lithuania (or Poland)?
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Author Topic: Why is Kaliningrad not part of Lithuania (or Poland)?  (Read 5665 times)
Blue3
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« on: April 01, 2017, 02:32:48 PM »
« edited: April 01, 2017, 02:34:50 PM by Blue3 »

Why is Kaliningrad not part of Lithuania (or Poland)?

Both Lithuania and Kaliningrad were in the same country, the Soviet Union, but when all the other states broke away, Russia kept small Kaliningrad, smudged right in-between Poland and Lithuania. It has prevented many families in Kaliningrad from permanently reuniting with their families in nearby Lithuania or Poland.  

I know, my Polish great-grandmother immigrated from the area near Vilnius around 1908, and after all the turmoil in that area in the 20th century, most of her Polish cousins and nieces/nephews are stuck in Kaliningrad, with a few in Lithuania, and one in Belarus, though they're all Polish (both my grandmother here in RI and her first cousin in Kaliningrad, who she never met in real life but have been pen pals since the 1930s/1940s, are still alive and in their mid-90's).

It used to be part of East Prussia and then Germany (once their capital, before Berlin), but was annexed and purged of Germans by the Soviet Union in April 1945. But the natives of the land continue to be Polish/Lithuanians, and the Soviets forced more to migrate there out of Poland and Lithuania, like my distant cousins.

Why did Russia hold onto it? Why is it not part of Lithuania?



For those who might never have noticed it on a map... or noticed, thought it was odd Russia still had a bit over there, but didn't think much of it and didn't know the name:


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Kalwejt
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« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 02:40:24 PM »

Why did Russia hold onto it? Why is it not part of Lithuania?

Kaliningrad was already a part of the Russian Soviet Federative Republic, which transformed into Russia we know today.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 02:52:45 PM »

Because it was geographically connected to the U. S. S. R.
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 03:07:45 PM »

The entire population is ethnic Russian. There are no Lithuanians or Poles there at all, and never really were, at least in the last few centuries. It was nearly 100% German, and then, after the Germans were expelled, was settled almost exclusively with Russians (not Poles or Lithuanians).
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 03:40:10 PM »

poor old, german pride of königsberg.

and possible the ground zero for our next "cuba crisis".
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 03:50:29 PM »

The entire population is ethnic Russian. There are no Lithuanians or Poles there at all, and never really were, at least in the last few centuries. It was nearly 100% German, and then, after the Germans were expelled, was settled almost exclusively with Russians (not Poles or Lithuanians).

The Crimea or Transnistria are also majority-Russian, but since didn't constitute the part of RFSSR, are not part of Russia now.

Had Kaliningran been assigned to the Lithuanian SSR, it would remain with Lithuania after 1991.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 04:06:43 PM »

It's strategically important - assigning Kalingrad to Lithuania would mean Russia would have lost its only permanently non-frozen port.
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Zuza
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« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 07:47:34 PM »
« Edited: April 01, 2017, 07:50:33 PM by Zuza »

I doubt Soviet leaders did care about keeping strategically important places within the RSFSR, unless they wouldn't transfer Crimea to Ukraine. It's possible they didn't take into account hypothetical dissolution of the USSR at all, but even if they took it into account, why should they somehow specially care what would happen to post-Soviet Russia which was only one of 15 republics? It's much more likely that Kaliningrad wasn't included into Lithuanian SSR simply because it didn't have a significant Lithuanian population and wasn't intended to be settled with Lithuanians (what prevented Soviet from populating it by Lithuanians is another question).
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Blue3
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« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 08:57:25 PM »

Why did Russia hold onto it? Why is it not part of Lithuania?

Kaliningrad was already a part of the Russian Soviet Federative Republic, which transformed into Russia we know today.
Yes, but why? Why didn't they transfer it to Lithuania while they were in the same country for decades?

Because it was geographically connected to the U. S. S. R.
It was part of the USSR, so was Lithuania.

The entire population is ethnic Russian. There are no Lithuanians or Poles there at all, and never really were, at least in the last few centuries. It was nearly 100% German, and then, after the Germans were expelled, was settled almost exclusively with Russians (not Poles or Lithuanians).
So my family doesn't exist?
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 05:25:15 AM »

It's strategically important - assigning Kalingrad to Lithuania would mean Russia would have lost its only permanently non-frozen port.

So is Crimea, which didn't prevent Nikita Sergeyevich from transferring it to the Ukrainian SSR. Of course since it was still one big Soviet Union it didn't matter until the thing actually collapsed. I don't think Stalin or Khrushchev ever thought along "well, the USSR might dissolve one day, so we better keep this with Russia..." lines.

My guess is that Stalin wanted to keep both Lithuanians and Poles in check. Very much like him.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 08:51:44 AM »

It's strategically important - assigning Kalingrad to Lithuania would mean Russia would have lost its only permanently non-frozen port.
St Petersburg? All the ports in the Black Sea? All their ports in the far east? (like say, Vladivostok)
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2017, 09:59:40 AM »

It's strategically important - assigning Kalingrad to Lithuania would mean Russia would have lost its only permanently non-frozen port.
St Petersburg? All the ports in the Black Sea? All their ports in the far east? (like say, Vladivostok)

St. Petersburg freezes in winter.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 10:21:22 AM »

It's strategically important - assigning Kalingrad to Lithuania would mean Russia would have lost its only permanently non-frozen port.
St Petersburg? All the ports in the Black Sea? All their ports in the far east? (like say, Vladivostok)

St. Petersburg freezes in winter.

And that is why, aside of other strategically important reasons, Russia wouldn't and won't give up the oblast.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 11:36:00 AM »

Exactly which bits of the Soviet Union went into which 'Republic' was at the time not terribly relevant; the Empire was not a genuine federal entity and it was never supposed to break up.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 11:41:50 AM »

Exactly which bits of the Soviet Union went into which 'Republic' was at the time not terribly relevant; the Empire was not a genuine federal entity and it was never supposed to break up.

Yes. For example the Ukrainian SSR had been enlarged in the west by bits of Russia for optics.
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Blue3
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« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2017, 12:05:18 PM »

Exactly which bits of the Soviet Union went into which 'Republic' was at the time not terribly relevant; the Empire was not a genuine federal entity and it was never supposed to break up.
Yes, so why wasn't this part of Lithuania, since it's not continuous with the rest of Russia?

It's strategically important - assigning Kalingrad to Lithuania would mean Russia would have lost its only permanently non-frozen port.
St Petersburg? All the ports in the Black Sea? All their ports in the far east? (like say, Vladivostok)

St. Petersburg freezes in winter.

And that is why, aside of other strategically important reasons, Russia wouldn't and won't give up the oblast.
But when it was the Soviet Union, that didn't matter.

And now, in order to get anything out of the oblast in wintertime to the rest of actual Russia, it needs to either pass through NATO states by air or land...
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2017, 12:11:14 PM »

Yes, so why wasn't this part of Lithuania, since it's not continuous with the rest of Russia?

My guess is Uncle Joe simply playing Divide et Impera.

And now, in order to get anything out of the oblast in wintertime to the rest of actual Russia, it needs to either pass through NATO states by air or land...

You still have the sea route. Beside, Russia is certainly very happy to have such an enclave in the middle of NATO territory, just like Americans, British and French valued West Berlin.
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Helsinkian
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« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2017, 12:53:54 PM »

It used to be part of East Prussia and then Germany (once their capital, before Berlin)

Huh? Königsberg was never the capital of Germany.
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« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2017, 12:57:15 PM »

It's strategically important - assigning Kalingrad to Lithuania would mean Russia would have lost its only permanently non-frozen port.
St Petersburg? All the ports in the Black Sea? All their ports in the far east? (like say, Vladivostok)

St. Petersburg freezes in winter.

As does Vladivostok. And the Black Sea Ports have their problems.

Man, climate change will be good for Russia (well, relatively good anyway)
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ApatheticAustrian
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« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2017, 01:30:18 PM »

Huh? Königsberg was never the capital of Germany.

he meant capital of prussia.
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Blue3
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« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2017, 02:03:24 PM »

Yes, so why wasn't this part of Lithuania, since it's not continuous with the rest of Russia?

My guess is Uncle Joe simply playing Divide et Impera.

And now, in order to get anything out of the oblast in wintertime to the rest of actual Russia, it needs to either pass through NATO states by air or land...

You still have the sea route. Beside, Russia is certainly very happy to have such an enclave in the middle of NATO territory, just like Americans, British and French valued West Berlin.

If they still have the sea route, then there's no need for Kaliningrad.

It used to be part of East Prussia and then Germany (once their capital, before Berlin)

Huh? Königsberg was never the capital of Germany.
Prussia
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2017, 02:09:23 PM »

Yes, so why wasn't this part of Lithuania, since it's not continuous with the rest of Russia?

My guess is Uncle Joe simply playing Divide et Impera.

And now, in order to get anything out of the oblast in wintertime to the rest of actual Russia, it needs to either pass through NATO states by air or land...

You still have the sea route. Beside, Russia is certainly very happy to have such an enclave in the middle of NATO territory, just like Americans, British and French valued West Berlin.

If they still have the sea route, then there's no need for Kaliningrad.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any sense in this post.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2017, 02:16:28 PM »

Königsberg (RIP) was only ever the capital of the part of the Hohenzollern domains outside the boundaries of the Holy Roman Empire; i.e. what was then known as the Duchy of Prussia and which later became East Prussia.
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Blue3
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« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2017, 02:31:32 PM »

Königsberg (RIP) was only ever the capital of the part of the Hohenzollern domains outside the boundaries of the Holy Roman Empire; i.e. what was then known as the Duchy of Prussia and which later became East Prussia.
East Prussia, Prussia.

I read it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6nigsberg

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Yes, so why wasn't this part of Lithuania, since it's not continuous with the rest of Russia?

My guess is Uncle Joe simply playing Divide et Impera.

And now, in order to get anything out of the oblast in wintertime to the rest of actual Russia, it needs to either pass through NATO states by air or land...

You still have the sea route. Beside, Russia is certainly very happy to have such an enclave in the middle of NATO territory, just like Americans, British and French valued West Berlin.

If they still have the sea route, then there's no need for Kaliningrad.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any sense in this post.
You said they still have a sea-route into the rest of Russia from Kaliningrad.

But you said they need Kaliningrad because it's the only seaport that's not frozen in the winter in that area of Russia. And I said it still doesn't make much sense, since anything that's imported into Kaliningrad would need to go through NATO countries by air or land to make it to the rest of Russia.
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Kalwejt
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2017, 02:41:35 PM »
« Edited: April 02, 2017, 02:48:03 PM by Kalwejt »

Königsberg (RIP) was only ever the capital of the part of the Hohenzollern domains outside the boundaries of the Holy Roman Empire; i.e. what was then known as the Duchy of Prussia and which later became East Prussia.
East Prussia, Prussia.

I read it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6nigsberg

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As Al pointed out earlier, from the formal standpoint, Berlin was not the capital of Prussia but the Electorate of Brandenburg, which was part of the Holy Roman Empire, while the Duchy, and subsequently Kingdom of Prussia, was not. Of course Brandenburg-Prussia was effectively an unified state.

Dukes-Electors used Prussia to elevate themselves to Kings, which wouldn't be allowed within the HRE.

But you said they need Kaliningrad because it's the only seaport that's not frozen in the winter in that area of Russia. And I said it still doesn't make much sense, since anything that's imported into Kaliningrad would need to go through NATO countries by air or land to make it to the rest of Russia.

So? Why should it make Kaliningrad not being strategically important for Russia?
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