Social Mobility Lowest in the South

[Frodo]

Without question a legacy of segregation and Jim Crow:

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The Atlantic

[JA]

This pretty much sums up why I left Florida. If you stay behind...your options are limited to some shiit job and the choices are narrow

I can't speak for all of Florida, but here in the Jacksonville metro starting your career is damn near impossible. The only people, even college graduates, I know who've had success are those whose parents have good connections here. Statistically, this area allegedly has low unemployment and high job growth. There are even thousands of job listings on indeed, yet everyone believes they're fake since very few ever get a call back except for low wage or part time jobs. Personally, I don't think the job listings are fake, they likely only hire based on if you know someone or if you have extensive experience, considering this area attracts a high number of people from the North.

My point is, it's a very difficult place to get your foot in the door without good connections or lots of experience. People I know have had more job hits from out-of-state than right here in the local area.

[pbrower2a]

It's easy to get high job growth if pay is abysmal. Of course there are consequences to low wages. People become less  mobile if they don't risk leaving their comparatively plush life that comes from staying with Mommy and Daddy into one's thirties if parents are out-earning  their kids. If one does not have such parents, then one must make compromises just to survive -- like failing to invest in education that might make one a more productive person. 

[JA]

It's easy to get high job growth if pay is abysmal. Of course there are consequences to low wages. People become less  mobile if they don't risk leaving their comparatively plush life that comes from staying with Mommy and Daddy into one's thirties if parents are out-earning  their kids. If one does not have such parents, then one must make compromises just to survive -- like failing to invest in education that might make one a more productive person. 

You can say that again. The South is notorious for chronic low wages, which is not always offset by a lower standard of living. Places like Florida and tourist cities in the Carolinas are perfect examples of that (Charleston, Myrtle Beach, Asheville). In my county rent alone is $1,030 for a 1 bedroom and $1,300 for a 2 bedroom. That's not necessarily bad, except the median wage here is $16.67 an hour ($34,674 a year) and most jobs that don't require a degree pay about half that. If I didn't live at home and pursue a degree, I don't know what I would've done here since I don't come from a wealthy background. I also see a lot of people kicking their kids out at 18 here, which I'm not sure if it's common elsewhere, but with relatively high costs and low wages, their chances look very grim. I don't know what'll happen to the majority of working, lower, and even middle class people living in areas like this who can't/won't relocate or don't have a degree.

Upward mobility for those of us born into the bottom 20% here is a joke, especially if you don't graduate college (with experience and connections) or learn a trade. Then I read how this area's supposedly thriving and I see new wealthy subdivisions being built everywhere, and it makes me think there must be something wrong with me and everyone I know. Young people, single parents, and the poor are piling into shared houses and apartments while half-million dollar homes are sprouting up everywhere.

[Torie]

Sometimes I get the impression that outside of the Albany metro area, and a few other islands, almost the entirety of upstate NY has almost no social mobility. So, when I saw this thread, I thought, hey upstate NY must really suck in upward mobility too, but the map shows that it is doing OK in general. How could that be I wondered.

I suspect that what is happening is that most of the upwardly mobile kids leave the region and never come back, and are replaced with folks moving in - with their money and/or skills, that are of the type where they can make a living via the computer. Thus it seems that almost the entirety of the bourgeoisie in upstate NY are from elsewhere. This is exacerbated by the phenomenon that most of the local industries of yesteryear, whose owners and managers made up a chunk of the bourgeoise back when, have failed, and are gone, leaving hulks of abandoned buildings strewn around, except where repurposed in gentrifying areas, by the new bourgeoise that has moved in. It sure is a very different world for SoCal - almost like another planet really.

[Person Man]

This all just everything that I have been going through the last 5 years.

In a career where you have to be licensed in each state you work and pedigree matters, you are pretty much are never going to get hired unless your school's hiring pool is big enough to give you choices. Else, you either won't be hired, or will have to take a remedial position and even then, many employers won't take a chance on someone they see as taking temporary advantage and whom they don't want to give raises to yet want long term loyalty from.

Then when I retrained for a career that is much less regulated and almost, but not quite, as sexy, I realised there are plenty of jobs, but they pay the big bucks because they are willing to find only the best people so many jobs go unfilled.

This hole leads to big opportunities  for outsourcers to come and basically do the job and there are TONS of jobs where Indians hire local kids to be unior technologists. A lot of these jobs are low-ball deals. A regular company starts you at 63k (and contractors can start at like 100k) but these guys start at 50k or sometimes even less and its mostly bitch work they will have you do but they are in nice sunbelt towns and they will take care of you and more you to sometimes nicer places on the coast but sometimes places on the rust belt. It just depends on where the client is.


Moral of the story: there's great or at least OK jobs out there, you just shouldn't buy a home even if you are pulling in 60,70 or even 80k alone because until you have the skills and like 5-10 years experience, you just won't be able to find and stay in a place you like....and even then, many seniors in the office say "there's a lot of good six figure jobs out there for experienced people, its just that you will always have to move".

[Skill and Chance]

This pretty much sums up why I left Florida. If you stay behind...your options are limited to some shiit job and the choices are narrow

I can't speak for all of Florida, but here in the Jacksonville metro starting your career is damn near impossible. The only people, even college graduates, I know who've had success are those whose parents have good connections here. Statistically, this area allegedly has low unemployment and high job growth. There are even thousands of job listings on indeed, yet everyone believes they're fake since very few ever get a call back except for low wage or part time jobs. Personally, I don't think the job listings are fake, they likely only hire based on if you know someone or if you have extensive experience, considering this area attracts a high number of people from the North.

My point is, it's a very difficult place to get your foot in the door without good connections or lots of experience. People I know have had more job hits from out-of-state than right here in the local area.

Well, I have no doubt being a young person in Florida has pretty much sucked opportunity wise since the housing bubble popped unless you have wealthy parents, but aren't you a bit surprised that this applies to places like Atlanta and Charlotte that perpetually have red hot economic growth and tons of people moving in?  In Florida, they are retirees, but in the other Southern states, what are they all moving in for if there is worse mobility than where they left?

[JA]

This pretty much sums up why I left Florida. If you stay behind...your options are limited to some shiit job and the choices are narrow

I can't speak for all of Florida, but here in the Jacksonville metro starting your career is damn near impossible. The only people, even college graduates, I know who've had success are those whose parents have good connections here. Statistically, this area allegedly has low unemployment and high job growth. There are even thousands of job listings on indeed, yet everyone believes they're fake since very few ever get a call back except for low wage or part time jobs. Personally, I don't think the job listings are fake, they likely only hire based on if you know someone or if you have extensive experience, considering this area attracts a high number of people from the North.

My point is, it's a very difficult place to get your foot in the door without good connections or lots of experience. People I know have had more job hits from out-of-state than right here in the local area.

Well, I have no doubt being a young person in Florida has pretty much sucked opportunity wise since the housing bubble popped unless you have wealthy parents, but aren't you a bit surprised that this applies to places like Atlanta and Charlotte that perpetually have red hot economic growth and tons of people moving in?  In Florida, they are retirees, but in the other Southern states, what are they all moving in for if there is worse mobility than where they left?

I think the big problem for places like Atlanta and Charlotte, along with other parts of the Deep South (LA, AR, MS, AL, GA, SC, NC, TN) is their racial composition. African Americans likely experience extremely low upward mobility that drags down the numbers. Plus locals tend to have lower educational attainment than transplants from elsewhere who're being lured in by job opportunities that are being denied to the locals. I'm not sure if you saw the map that shows where upward mobility is the worst, but it tends to be in areas with high concentrations of African Americans who're also the ones that constitute an extremely disproportionate number of the bottom 20%.

The result is essentially a serious situation. You have a largely African American lower class denied opportunity of upward mobility, statistically high job and population growth due to companies attracting educated and skilled workers from elsewhere, and an ever widening gulf separating the largely African American lower class who're stuck with chronically low wages from a large transplant population driving up the cost of living. Thus, unemployment numbers, job growth numbers, population growth numbers, and so on all look very good on the surface, which makes it seem like these places are a huge success. This allows policymakers, the media, and the public to deny that anything bad is happening and blame the intergenerational and chronic poverty on an unwillingness to work hard.

[Person Man]

This pretty much sums up why I left Florida. If you stay behind...your options are limited to some shiit job and the choices are narrow

I can't speak for all of Florida, but here in the Jacksonville metro starting your career is damn near impossible. The only people, even college graduates, I know who've had success are those whose parents have good connections here. Statistically, this area allegedly has low unemployment and high job growth. There are even thousands of job listings on indeed, yet everyone believes they're fake since very few ever get a call back except for low wage or part time jobs. Personally, I don't think the job listings are fake, they likely only hire based on if you know someone or if you have extensive experience, considering this area attracts a high number of people from the North.

My point is, it's a very difficult place to get your foot in the door without good connections or lots of experience. People I know have had more job hits from out-of-state than right here in the local area.

Well, I have no doubt being a young person in Florida has pretty much sucked opportunity wise since the housing bubble popped unless you have wealthy parents, but aren't you a bit surprised that this applies to places like Atlanta and Charlotte that perpetually have red hot economic growth and tons of people moving in?  In Florida, they are retirees, but in the other Southern states, what are they all moving in for if there is worse mobility than where they left?

I think the big problem for places like Atlanta and Charlotte, along with other parts of the Deep South (LA, AR, MS, AL, GA, SC, NC, TN) is their racial composition. African Americans likely experience extremely low upward mobility that drags down the numbers. Plus locals tend to have lower educational attainment than transplants from elsewhere who're being lured in by job opportunities that are being denied to the locals. I'm not sure if you saw the map that shows where upward mobility is the worst, but it tends to be in areas with high concentrations of African Americans who're also the ones that constitute an extremely disproportionate number of the bottom 20%.

The result is essentially a serious situation. You have a largely African American lower class denied opportunity of upward mobility, statistically high job and population growth due to companies attracting educated and skilled workers from elsewhere, and an ever widening gulf separating the largely African American lower class who're stuck with chronically low wages from a large transplant population driving up the cost of living. Thus, unemployment numbers, job growth numbers, population growth numbers, and so on all look very good on the surface, which makes it seem like these places are a huge success. This allows policymakers, the media, and the public to deny that anything bad is happening and blame the intergenerational and chronic poverty on an unwillingness to work hard.

Its kind of like the pre-New Deal where all suffering and didappointment was called simply a lack of knowledge of the system.

[Indy Texas]

One of the ironies of the regressive tax structure of most Southern states is that it leaves governments with zero incentive to do anything to encourage the creation of high-wage jobs.

If you get most of your money from sales taxes and/or an unprogressive income tax, there's little benefit to the state from fostering the growth of $150K/yr professional jobs as opposed to $30K/yr jobs for high school degree holders. There won't be as much marginal revenue as there is in states where the wealthy pay a larger portion of taxes.

[Skill and Chance]

None of this addresses why non-white people are pouring into these cities?

Also, to Indy Texas, isn't it generally more progressive for state and local governments to use property taxes to fund services than to use income taxes?  Every household has some taxable income, while only about 60% own homes and those that do are generally 10X better off in a net worth sense.  Keep in mind that most even "progressive" state income taxes max out at a few $10K/year.  CA and NY are about the only ones that specifically tax 6 figure incomes at higher rates and come anything close to what the federal government does.  A (basically) flat 5.75% state income tax and 0.75% property taxes is probably more regressive than no state income tax and 2.5% property taxes.  And sales taxes are just as high or higher in CA and NY than in the no-income tax states.