SB 2016-074: Amend. to Art. 1, Sect. 6 of the Constit. (Passed)

[Associate Justice PiT]

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[/quote]

Sponsor: Siren

     I hereby open the floor for debate.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     We have a substantial backlog of old House bills, so I decided we need to start cutting through them. This one passed a while ago, but has been overlooked.

[Anna Komnene]

Oh lookie another one of those bills sponsored by that Representative Siren lady.  I sure like her bills. 

I was happy to sponsor this amendment for Justice Jbrase back when I was in the House.  This is what he had to say about it at the time.

Since I wrote this I would like to chime in:

The military has demonstrated it is more than capable of running purely on the power of volunteer recruits. On the point of extreme circumstances where more are needed then I would ask that do we not have confidence in our own people that in time is national distress people wouldn't answer to the call out of patriotism? And if its not a national emergency where the country itself is in danger of direct attack then I would seriously question our being involved in whatever the fight is to begin with.

. . .

Because banning coercion of people into service against their will, no matter how noble the cause may seem, is something that should be enshrined in constitutional law for all time, and not endangered by shifting opinions of the state.

and this is what I had to say...

Generally, I think the ability to choose what we do in life (within reason) is paramount to having a free society.  Regardless of your religious beliefs, we only live the life we're currently leading once, so we should get a say in whether we do things that might put our life in danger.  If necessary, the military or government can always do things that might make volunteering to serve more appealing, but I don't think forcing someone to serve is doing anyone any good even in an emergency.

Yeah yeah, lazy re-post from the low energy Senator from Fremont... but the arguments are still just as relevant today!

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Those arguments are always relevant, because they deal with the foundational principles of the liberal society. I favor a Constitutional ban on the draft, because I believe that a country that must rob people of their fundamental rights to defend itself is not worth defending. We are better than that, and our citizens volunteer in large numbers to staff our military in recognition of that fact.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

     Those arguments are always relevant, because they deal with the foundational principles of the liberal society. I favor a Constitutional ban on the draft, because I believe that a country that must rob people of their fundamental rights to defend itself is not worth defending. We are better than that, and our citizens volunteer in large numbers to staff our military in recognition of that fact.

I agree with this. Any nation that conscripts its citizens into military service is playing with fire. Creating a generation of young men and women that are shipped off to war against their will whenever the government deems it necessary will only result in greater rates of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, veteran homelessness, and backlogs in veterans' hospitals.

This is a straightforward and sensible amendment that I think we should all support.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

This amendment has my support.  Is this getting a vote soon?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     If there are no more comments, I can open a final vote in 24 hours.

[LLR]

     If there are no more comments, I can open a final vote in 24 hours.

Motioned

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I hereby open a final vote on this bill. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain.

[Donerail]

Aye

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Aye.

[Anna Komnene]

Aye

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Aye. This bill has enough votes to pass; Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

Aye

[Associate Justice PiT]

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[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Okay, this passes with a bare majority of 6-2... Remember as a Constitutional Amendment this need 2/3rds vote (4 votes in the senate if you're keeping track at home kids).

The striking of the line in beginning of the text, could render prison terms unconstitutional.


Prison is a form of involuntary servitude.

Completely agree. This bill was not as well worded and cut out key parts of constitutional provisions that were there for a reason. I do hope the Senate helps put an end to it.

Always read the House debate thread.

[Anna Komnene]

I'd like to motion to suspend the rules in order to bring this back to the floor so we can discuss Speaker Yankee's concern.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I'd like to motion to suspend the rules in order to bring this back to the floor so we can discuss Speaker Yankee's concern.

Second.

[Donerail]

I do not believe there is any legal argument for considering prison to be a form of involuntary servitude. I do believe this amendment would result in a prohibition on involuntary prison labor, where prisoners are forced to work for as little as two cents per day on threat of solitary confinement. The practical effect of this amendment will not be to render prisons unconstitutional, but to force prisons to offer inmates a fair wage if they wish to entice them to work and to redefine the relationship between prisoners and prison laborers as primarily economic rather than penological, providing incarcerated workers the protections offered under the FLSA and the NLRA that they do not currently enjoy.

I object to the motion to suspend the rules.
Edit: objection withdrawn.

[Anna Komnene]

I actually agree with you SJoyce, but the problem is there is going to be a campaign to defeat the amendment based on Yankee's argument.  I would rather we try to fix the wording of the amendment instead to head it off (maybe by changing "involuntary servitude" to "forced labor" or adding a clause specifically saying that prisons are fine).

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I hereby open a vote on the motion to suspend the rules. Please vote aye, nay, or abstain.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Aye.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I can see that I'm in the minority here, and I don't expect to convince anyone, but I'd just like to point out that in the absence of a draft, the Union would in all likelihood have lost the Civil War (something I hardly believe would have been good for the country, its citizens, or the world). War and popular opinion are not nearly as simple as whether the country is worthy of defense. Historically, most major conflicts in our history have followed a similar trajectory. At the outset, there is normally a great, patriotic outpouring, and volunteers are easily found; but as the fighting drags on, and the casualties begin to add up, that spirit is replaced by an understanding of what war actually means. It becomes harder and harder to find willing recruits, not because citizens believe the country is not worth defending, but because they would rather someone else were responsible for it. To insist that it would be better for the nation to submit to the conquest of a foreign enemy than to conscript citizens into military service strikes me as a very odd position – and I say this as someone who would have opposed every war waged in the last fifty years.

To clarify: I don't think a draft is at all necessary at the present time, nor likely to be necessary for the foreseeable future. I would happily support legislation to abolish the Selective Service, and would just as happily support this amendment were it restricted to conscientious objectors (or, for that matter, if a clause were added allowing Congress to temporarily reinstate the draft by a 2/3 vote). Yet to engrave in the Constitution a prophesy that we will never again have need for the last resort of conscription strikes me as foolish and short-sighted, and I would ask the Congress – with little hope of success – to reconsider the extent of this proposal.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I also agree with Truman on this point.

I went several rounds with Libertas in 2010 and Napoleon in 2011, over the issue and finally it ended up with a 2/3rds clause or something similar in the Third Constitution.

Perhaps Scott and PiT will recall those debates in 2011.

[Donerail]

Aye.