Reunification of the Southeast Bill

[Joe Republic]

I'm sure it will surprise nobody that I'm still against this.  But in my defense against Ebowed',s assertion, I have always been open to the possibility of it.  It's just that so far the case presented to me so far has been weak at best.

1. If the SE takes Virginia, where will they stop?  Kentucky, Oklahoma, Missouri?  Even D.C., Maryland and Delaware?  Its already a stated aim of the Dixie Union Caucus to try and reunite the Old Confederacy, which would put every other region at great cost (in many more ways than one).

2. It doesn't seem to bother anybody that, for example, Wisconsin and Illinois aren't Midwestern states, despite being quite firmly in the well-established Midwest region in real life.  Equally, Wyoming and Idaho are separated right now, despite being incredibly similar culturally and politically.  Where's the massive demand for them to be reunited?  Why is Virginia such a special case?

3. A few Virginian people have already stated their support for this, and a few have already come out against it.  However, some of the people currently registered in Virginia aren't even from there in real life.  Why do they seem to have a say in this, and others don't?  What's to stop anybody (like myself, for example) from just registering in VA and then declaring my opposition to it?

4. Let's say that VA switches to the SE.  A couple months from now, the current residents have become inactive or whatever, and have been replaced by a new bunch of Virginians, who all want VA out of the South.  Do we then have to begin proceedings for moving VA back again?  I realize that this same logic can be applied to any state transfer, and that is why I tend to view all of them with caution.

5. I'm sorry to say it, but the activities of certain members from the SE over the last few months has shown that the regional government is potentially unstable.  The citizens of the SE were almost plunged into Civil War following the activities of its government.  With Virginia being a border state between the Southeast and Mideast, they would be in the worst location if a war actually ever erupted.  I wouldn't wish that on any Virginian (or any Atlasian citizen for that matter).

6. I don't want this to set a precedent.  As it appears that this trade would benefit the Mideast in no way at all, and 'trade' really is an inaccurate name here, I don't want the Mideast to gain a reputation for giving in to bully boy tactics.  I'll openly admit that every state in the Mideast could easily be considered something other than 'Mideastern' (which isn't even an accepted word in real life).  So if one state jumps ship, chances are more will follow.  Then where will we be? 

[Joe Republic]

At least our government does not cancel elections due to rampant inactivity.

For the last time, please check your facts first.  They were 'postponed', not 'canceled'.  And the inactivity was far beyond my control.  It differs from you and StatesRights because your actions were deliberately reckless.

[Joe Republic]

Let me address and comment on each of Governor Republic's very astute points.

1. If the SE takes Virginia, where will they stop?  Kentucky, Oklahoma, Missouri?  Even D.C., Maryland and Delaware?  Its already a stated aim of the Dixie Union Caucus to try and reunite the Old Confederacy, which would put every other region at great cost (in many more ways than one).

That is certainly a valid concern. But the current claim should be evaluated on its own merits, not taking into account slippery slope fallacies.

Agreed.  I just wanted to raise the point as I feel that would be another precedent for the Dixie union to take advantage of.

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The citizens of the Southeast will, naturally, be concerned about unifying (as they see it) the Southeast. It should not be relevant that citizens of other regions are not equally concerned. I think that few bother about the examples you cite because the Midwest is an inactive region.[/quote]

Also agreed.  This was really just to highlight the fact that such a fuss is being made over Virginia, but nowhere else.

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As far as I know, MHS2002, A18, and Frodo, all of whom support the move, are from the real life Commonwealth of Virginia.[/quote]

This is true, but is outweighed anyway by the next point.

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This is another very valid concern; however, I do not think that such a situation is likely to come to pass.[/quote]

Unlikely it may be, but possible it certainly is.

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I don't think that it is my place to comment, but the Southeast is not the only region which has faced problems. The Northeast has recently faced problems relating to the Governor's use of a line item veto. The Mideast has seen an election and referendum postponed, and then cancelled. The Midwest has faced a very serious inactivity crisis. The Pacific has seen many essentially uncontested elections. So the Southeast is not the only region with fantasy problems: no, such problems face all the regions from time to time.[/quote]

Perhaps so, but the Southeast is the only region that has almost caused a Civil War in Atlasia.  I understand your point though.

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This is probably, in my opinion, the most valid and most serious concern of all.
[/quote]

Thank you.

[Joe Republic]

Are you seriously saying that we deny citizens inalienable rights just because they don't live in that state in real life? Why should it matter if they are real life Virginians or not we are not in America we are in Atlasia and you should get that through you thick skull. Would you be willing to, in real life, not be allowed to vote in state elections because you were not born in that state? This is pure idiocy of the highest kind.

To be perfectly fair, the issue was raised not by Frodo, but by Governor Joe Republic:

3. A few Virginian people have already stated their support for this, and a few have already come out against it.  However, some of the people currently registered in Virginia aren't even from there in real life.  Why do they seem to have a say in this, and others don't?  What's to stop anybody (like myself, for example) from just registering in VA and then declaring my opposition to it?

Frodo was merely stating a fact (that certain posters actually live in Virginia in real life); he was merely responding to Joe Republic's question.

I think Joe Republic mostly meant other people that aren't there now coming in to swing the state. I'm pretty sure he's fine with those that are in there now. He may prove me wrong though.

That's right - I have no problem at all with any of the people there now at all.  However, my point was merely that it seems strange to me that somebody who has never visited Virginia in his life has as much say in what happens to it as the actual residents (e.g. MHS, Frodo, etc.).  And also that anybody at any point could just re-register in the state and place their objection to the transfer.

[Joe Republic]

I think it's funny that Joe Republic doesn't want to lose Virginia but supports abolishing the Midwest.

Actually if you look at it, that is my way of a compromise.  I support merging the Midwest and Mideast (or most of them at least), which would as a side effect put Virginia, West Virginia AND Kentucky in the Southeast.

I thought you said that I have "never been open about the idea" of giving VA to the SE?  Clearly that shows that I am.

[Joe Republic]

At least our government does not cancel elections due to rampant inactivity.

For the last time, please check your facts first.  They were 'postponed', not 'canceled'.  And the inactivity was far beyond my control.  It differs from you and StatesRights because your actions were deliberately reckless.

They were postponed to the next scheduled election. ie, cancelled.

Then this is an argument about semantics.

And I've already defended my actions.  At the risk of threadjacking, what's yours again?

[Joe Republic]

Then this is an argument about semantics.

And I've already defended my actions.  At the risk of threadjacking, what's yours again?

My what? action, defense...

Your defense for your actions as Southeast Magistrate during the Civil War 'crisis', of course.  Though if you're feeling generous you could remind us all of your actions too.

Actually here isn't the place for that.  I hate it when I blatantly hijack threads.

[Joe Republic]

That's not a very good compromise-- right now, you don't want Virginians to decide what region they should be in, and it looks like you don't think the Midwest should decide its fate either.

Actually I'm more than willing to hear what the Virginians feel about this issue - I just think that we should look much more deeply into any poll than simply asking 'yes or no'.  My earlier posts should hopefully explain this better.

As for the Midwest - I support the idea of a merger in theory.  But as none of the Midwesterners seem interested in it at all, that's where the issue ends as far as I'm concerned.

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Thank you.

[Joe Republic]

That wouldn't be the first time that some Southeasterners have forgotten the good work that a person has done and voted against him because of one single 'anti-South' action.  Gotta love the most melodramatic region of Atlasia. 

[Joe Republic]

Generally, I have tried to stay out of Senate business since I retired, but exactly what is being "reunified" here?  VA was never a part of the Southeastern Region, therefore, it in not being "re" anything with it.  Now, that leaves one remaining possibility, that being reunification with the Confederacy, which does not exist.

The bill was written by Dubya and sponsored by Sam Spade, so asking them would be the best idea.

[Joe Republic]

Generally, I have tried to stay out of Senate business since I retired, but exactly what is being "reunified" here?  VA was never a part of the Southeastern Region, therefore, it in not being "re" anything with it.  Now, that leaves one remaining possibility, that being reunification with the Confederacy, which does not exist.

Well, as I understood it, they feel that the "true" Southeast is the states that composed the Confederacy in real life, and that our version of the Southeast is missing a state.

Of course.  They just want to unite all Southern Speaking Peoples.  They need breathing room.

I don't really know what you're implying here, Super.  All the Southeasterners want is to reclaim Austria Virginia, which I can only guess they'd want to follow up with the Sudetenland Kentucky, and probably Czechoslovakia Missouri and Poland Oklahoma at some point.  Don't worry, I guess we could just appease them.  Its not like they'd want anything else afterwards....

[Joe Republic]

While I've tried to refrain from making strong statements in this debate thus far, I feel as though I should make it clear that if this bill passes, it is my intention to veto it. I don't have a problem with regions state swapping, but this is not, unless the Mideast gets fair compensation, I will not permit this bill to stand if passed.

Siege

Thank you Mr President.  Your support (or lack of it, as the case may be) means a lot to us.

[Joe Republic]

On behalf of the Mideast region, I thank the Senate for doing the right thing.