Berkeley Police Department firing stun grenades against political opposition?

[EnglishPete]

Yesterday as everybody knows well there was a riot in Berkeley. A large group of right wingers organised a free speech protest and a large group of antifa turned up to disrupt and attack the event. There was a significant amount of fighting from both sides that was well documented by the media.

What was also well documented was that the Berkeley Police were, yet again, given stand down orders that encouraged the violence to get out of hand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWhwNjmrtUU

Now I've discussed before how this tactic of giving the police stand down orders in the face of left wing violence is a tactic used by leftist authorities in various places, including Berkeley, as a way of using violence against political dissidents in a 'plausibly deniable' way.

However I have to say that I've truly underestimated the extend to which Berkeley PD and Berkeley authorities work to facilitate left wing 'protest' groups. this is from the Berkeley PD Website

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https://archive.fo/7uiyS#selection-993.0-1075.22

Sorry, WTF were those last two items

"Do you want symbolic arrests?
If so, where and when?"

So lets get this right if far left agitators threaten and carry out violence against right wing dissidents (in other words political opponents of the Democratic Party leadership) then Berkeley PD will be ordered to stand back and do nothing to prevent this 'expression of the right to protest' (wink, wink).

However if a left wing protest group actually want some fake arrests to be carried out so that they can have a little photo op pretending to fight 'the man' then Berkeley Police will oblige. And they Berkeley PD actually advertise this as a service on their website.

Frankly any left wing agitator or protester in Berkeley who imagines that they represent the opposition to the authorities must be tripping.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Well mr. conspiracy theorist how about the fact that alt-right figures were calling upon the "kek army" to go commit violence at Berkeley the day prior to the attacks?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I know I was doubtful before when you said that liberal institutions were tacitly allowing this stuff, but it is amazing to see how this played out just as everyone expected. I'm starting to think that the only way a free speech demonstration can happen in Berkeley without Antifa violence is for the National Guard to be deployed to keep the peace here.

[JerryArkansas]

Of course, the right starts up the conspiracy theories now.  Nothing better to do?

[Associate Justice PiT]

Of course, the right starts up the conspiracy theories now.  Nothing better to do?

     You don't need conspiracy theories to recognize that the Berkeley Police have been utterly worthless in keeping the peace.

[JerryArkansas]

Of course, the right starts up the conspiracy theories now.  Nothing better to do?

     You don't need conspiracy theories to recognize that the Berkeley Police have been utterly worthless in keeping the peace.

What you seem to be suggesting is they are doing it on purpose, which is just absurd.  That notion is why I labelled you and the OP as conspiracy theorists.

[EnglishPete]

     I know I was doubtful before when you said that liberal institutions were tacitly allowing this stuff, but it is amazing to see how this played out just as everyone expected. I'm starting to think that the only way a free speech demonstration can happen in Berkeley without Antifa violence is for the National Guard to be deployed to keep the peace here.

Of course its easier to see these things for what they are. If western people were to see an example of a group of anti-Putin protestors being attacked by a group of pro Putin thugs with the Russian police standing aside and looking the other way then most people would, not unreasonably, assume that the police were being given politically motivated orders to not interfere.  Its sometimes a bit more difficult to accept that the same kind of thing can happen in our own countries.

As I said before I think its the

"Do you want symbolic arrests?
If so, where and when?"

on the Berkeley PD website really removes the last shreds of doubt for me of the attitude of the Berkeley authorities to left wing protestors.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Of course, the right starts up the conspiracy theories now.  Nothing better to do?

     You don't need conspiracy theories to recognize that the Berkeley Police have been utterly worthless in keeping the peace.

What you seem to be suggesting is they are doing it on purpose, which is just absurd.  That notion is why I labelled you and the OP as conspiracy theorists.

     The City of Berkeley has handled these demonstrations so poorly that I can't help but wonder sometimes. Of course, me wondering is proof of nothing.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I checked the Berkeley PD's website myself and it appears to maintain the questions about symbolic arrests. I understand maintaining a certain level of passivity in order to avoid jumping the gun on protesters, as such tends to look bad, but this amount of placation is ridiculous. For the record, I am not following the news on Berkeley and my observations have no connection with recent events.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Nice conspiracy theory, but how does that explain Oakland police beating the crap out of anti Iraq war protesters and Occupy Oakland? As well as them beating up some anti police brutality protesters in Berkeley (where they were called into for backup) a couple of years ago, definitely a bad move there.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

    I know I was doubtful before when you said that liberal institutions were tacitly allowing this stuff, but it is amazing to see how this played out just as everyone expected. I'm starting to think that the only way a free speech demonstration can happen in Berkeley without Antifa violence is for the National Guard to be deployed to keep the peace here.

I love free speech demonstrations:





This dude looks like he loves free speech:


These guys love freedom and national socialism:

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Anyways, I agree that the Berkeley PD is soft, weak and allowed this to happen: they should have rounded up as many of these fascists thugs as possible at the first sign of violence. Of course, police officers anywhere and everyone are staffed with fascists and Republicans so this is probably asking too much, I realize that it's in their nature to bloody socialists and to coddle neo-Nazis so this policy is the best policy possible.

[EnglishPete]

Anyways, I agree that the Berkeley PD is soft, weak and allowed this to happen: they should have rounded up as many of these fascists thugs as possible at the first sign of violence. Of course, police officers anywhere and everyone are staffed with fascists and Republicans so this is probably asking too much, I realize that it's in their nature to bloody socialists and to coddle neo-Nazis so this policy is the best policy possible.

If it had been the other way around and it had been a right wing group attacking a leftist rally then I suspect the police would have stepped in to stop the violence.

Holding a political rally, whether that's a 'free speech rally' or an 'actual nazi rally' (and a couple of dudes in the middle of the crowd throwing up a 'Roman' salute does not a nazi rally make, but that's beside the point) or a left wing rally is not a criminal offence. Using crime and disorder to shut down political rallies you don't like is a crime.

It is literally the job of the police to prevent, deter crime and disorder and to stop incidents of crime and disorder if it starts. That is officially their main reason for existence as a service. So where crime and disorder are occurring on a large scale and the police are deliberately ordered to stand back and do nothing to prevent it or stop it and are ordered to just wait around and do nothing instead that requires explanation, especially when this happens repeatedly.

Now what you are suggesting is that the police should intervene directly themselves to shut down right wing political rallies, i.e. what you would consider to be fascist rallies. In other words you think that such rallies should be classed as criminal in and of themselves. Of course such laws exist and are enforced in communist countries and its unsurprising, given your avatar, that you think such laws should exist in the US and indeed everywhere.

Of course such laws do not exist in the US and indeed there are not just strong legal but also strong cultural defenses of the rights to free speech and free assembly. The Berkeley authorities are therefore unable to use the police directly to try to shut down right wing political protest. So instead the police are given clear orders to stand down and keep out of sight as a way of facilitating far left groups attempting to play that role.

[EnglishPete]

Nice conspiracy theory, but how does that explain Oakland police beating the crap out of anti Iraq war protesters and Occupy Oakland? As well as them beating up some anti police brutality protesters in Berkeley (where they were called into for backup) a couple of years ago, definitely a bad move there.

Two point to make there. Firstly Oakland PD is a different force to Berkeley PD. I'm not aware of Oakland PD literally offering "Do you want symbolic arrests" as a service on their website.

However leaving that aside for one moment you can see that yes, in most protest situations the police are not given stand down orders and they're ordered to keep the protests under control. In situations where leftist agitators are wanting to attack not some aspect of the local establishment but right wing opposition to that establishment then Berkeley PD are given orders to deliberately stand down and get out of the way and allow the violence to get out of control.  You see the contrast?

[EnglishPete]

I checked the Berkeley PD's website myself and it appears to maintain the questions about symbolic arrests. I understand maintaining a certain level of passivity in order to avoid jumping the gun on protesters, as such tends to look bad, but this amount of placation is ridiculous.

Exactly. No doubt there have been other cases with other police forces where such pre arranged 'symbolic arrests' have taken place (particularly where the one being arrested is a police spy, but that's a different matter).

But to actually offer symbolic arrests as a service on their website is amazing. They may as well put "You want a nice photo op of you being oppressed for standing up to the pigs. No problem, its all part of the service". Its just amazing.

[SoLongAtlas]

Searched the Berkeley PD site and nothing so did a global search of the site and found this http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentPrint.aspx?id=113110

Symbolic arrest is a real thing for them. Wow. I knew Berkeley was a far-left city but I didn't know the cops would accommodate this kind of thing. No words.

[dead0man]

Searched the Berkeley PD site and nothing so did a global search of the site and found this http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/ContentPrint.aspx?id=113110

Symbolic arrest is a real thing for them. Wow. I knew Berkeley was a far-left city but I didn't know the cops would accommodate this kind of thing. No words.

no no...it's just a dumb alt-right conspiracy.  Didn't ya hear about it right after that whoosh of all the knees jerking?

[Associate Justice PiT]

Anyways, I agree that the Berkeley PD is soft, weak and allowed this to happen: they should have rounded up as many of these fascists thugs as possible at the first sign of violence. Of course, police officers anywhere and everyone are staffed with fascists and Republicans so this is probably asking too much, I realize that it's in their nature to bloody socialists and to coddle neo-Nazis so this policy is the best policy possible.

     DFB, I know you know better than that. The anarchists have consistently shown up and started violence. Demanding that the police arrest their targets when they are reacting to Antifa provocation on account of those targets being "fascist thugs" is Orwellian in the utmost.

[publicunofficial]

The right wing tut-tutting some random students while their leaders rip money from the poor and kill little arab girls with bombs will never stop entertaining me.

[EnglishPete]

The right wing tut-tutting some random students while their leaders rip money from the poor and kill little arab girls with bombs will never stop entertaining me.

The issue is not the behaviour of the far left and far left agitators. Obvious their behaviour on Saturday was appalling but that's just the nature of these people.

The issue is the actions of the Berkeley PD. Their job is to maintain law and orders and for the third time this year they were given politically motivated 'stand down' orders in order to facilitate leftist violence. The "Do you want symbolic arrests? If so where and when" is just the cherry on top that removes all doubt that BPD is being used by its political masters to serve the purposes of leftist agitators with whom they sympathise and who are politically useful for them.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

     DFB, I know you know better than that. The anarchists have consistently shown up and started violence.

have they? good. violence against nazis is inherently an act of self-defense and/or defense of others.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Wait ... did I sleep through some constitutional amendment that says people with abhorrent views no longer have the right to free speech? Because even assuming these rightwingers are unrepentant Nazis, I don't see why that precludes them from having a free speech rally.

[EnglishPete]

Wait ... did I sleep through some constitutional amendment that says people with abhorrent views no longer have the right to free speech? Because even assuming these rightwingers are unrepentant Nazis, I don't see why that precludes them from having a free speech rally.

Germany, like the UK, doesn't have the First Amendment. A fact of which SUSAN CRUSHBONE (and TheDeadFlagBlues) clearly approve.

[Helsinkian]

    DFB, I know you know better than that. The anarchists have consistently shown up and started violence.

have they? good. violence against nazis is inherently an act of self-defense and/or defense of others.

Says the user who uses their signature to celebrate the revolution that brought about a genocidal and racist regime which killed millions of people.

[EnglishPete]

    DFB, I know you know better than that. The anarchists have consistently shown up and started violence.

have they? good. violence against nazis is inherently an act of self-defense and/or defense of others.

Says the user who uses their signature to celebrate the revolution that brought about a genocidal and racist regime which killed millions of people.

Don't you know that the Bolsheviks murdered millions, caused needless famines in which millions more died and set up a tyranny that lasted over seventy years as "an act of self-defense and/or defense of others". I suspect though that if Rosa Crushbone here had been one of the 1917 revolutionaries then she would later have become one of the fanatic early Bolshiviks to die in the Gulags in one of Stalin's purges.