Berkeley Police Department firing stun grenades against political opposition?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I know I was doubtful before when you said that liberal institutions were tacitly allowing this stuff, but it is amazing to see how this played out just as everyone expected. I'm starting to think that the only way a free speech demonstration can happen in Berkeley without Antifa violence is for the National Guard to be deployed to keep the peace here.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Of course, the right starts up the conspiracy theories now.  Nothing better to do?

     You don't need conspiracy theories to recognize that the Berkeley Police have been utterly worthless in keeping the peace.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Of course, the right starts up the conspiracy theories now.  Nothing better to do?

     You don't need conspiracy theories to recognize that the Berkeley Police have been utterly worthless in keeping the peace.

What you seem to be suggesting is they are doing it on purpose, which is just absurd.  That notion is why I labelled you and the OP as conspiracy theorists.

     The City of Berkeley has handled these demonstrations so poorly that I can't help but wonder sometimes. Of course, me wondering is proof of nothing.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Anyways, I agree that the Berkeley PD is soft, weak and allowed this to happen: they should have rounded up as many of these fascists thugs as possible at the first sign of violence. Of course, police officers anywhere and everyone are staffed with fascists and Republicans so this is probably asking too much, I realize that it's in their nature to bloody socialists and to coddle neo-Nazis so this policy is the best policy possible.

     DFB, I know you know better than that. The anarchists have consistently shown up and started violence. Demanding that the police arrest their targets when they are reacting to Antifa provocation on account of those targets being "fascist thugs" is Orwellian in the utmost.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Germany shows us why it isn't enough to simply have words that say free speech exists; you need courts that are willing to enforce these provisions and people willing to stand for these rights, as we are fortunate enough to have in the United States.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Anyways, I agree that the Berkeley PD is soft, weak and allowed this to happen: they should have rounded up as many of these fascists thugs as possible at the first sign of violence. Of course, police officers anywhere and everyone are staffed with fascists and Republicans so this is probably asking too much, I realize that it's in their nature to bloody socialists and to coddle neo-Nazis so this policy is the best policy possible.

     DFB, I know you know better than that. The anarchists have consistently shown up and started violence. Demanding that the police arrest their targets when they are reacting to Antifa provocation on account of those targets being "fascist thugs" is Orwellian in the utmost.

I'm actually very serious about this. The media's portrayal of these confrontations is very skewed; the people who attend these rallies are not typical Trump supporters. They are fascists who seek to provoke violence. In the interests of fairness, I support locking up anti-fascists as well, that's a given because I'm not a nut, but the notion that one side does this and the other does not is a myth.

I'm not sure what there is to discuss here tbh. The law should be enforced in a fair manner. I hate fascists and sympathize with anti-fascists, even though they, too, are rather stupid.

     The media indeed is skewed; they act like both sides are equally culpable when there can be no doubt that this was an act of left-wing provocation. Characterizing the whole demonstration as Nazi is inaccurate. Insofar as far-right people showed up, they correctly anticipated that Antifa would show up and they were spoiling for a fight; as everyone who isn't Antifa is well aware of, the far-right finds street violence irresistible and is far more proficient at it than the far-left is.

     If the law could be enforced fairly and the police would actually maintain the peace, that would be wonderful. Given that that failed to happen, the demonstrators acted rationally. I am ecstatic to see that the far-left was defeated and the anarchists were demoralized. It is tragic if it emboldens the far-right, but until law and order is restored it's either/or. The police have it within their hands to prevent either one of these two reprehensible factions from "winning".

[Associate Justice PiT]

What happened in Berkeley?

     There was a demonstration (the sides disagree on the nature of the demonstration, with some claiming that it was to promote free speech and some claiming that it was to promote fascism). The Black Bloc showed up and a huge melee ensued. While fists were flying, the police just stood by and watched.

[Associate Justice PiT]

What happened in Berkeley?

     There was a demonstration (the sides disagree on the nature of the demonstration, with some claiming that it was to promote free speech and some claiming that it was to promote fascism). The Black Bloc showed up and a huge melee ensued. While fists were flying, the police just stood by and watched.

Seems like there were a few arrests that happened in fact. And there was no property damage reported either.

And considering the tear-gassing and looting back in 2014, kinda hard not to see why they decided to under-react.

     It started in a park and only spread onto Shattuck Ave near the end of the skirmish, so the lack of property damage is to be expected. The underreaction may be understandable, but that should not make us tolerate it. I tried to explain it in as evenhanded a fashion as possible when the information was requested, but it remains that a masked mob tried to shut down a legal demonstration.

[Associate Justice PiT]

the anti-free speech protesters here sure didn't do themselves any favors did they?  From what I could tell, they rolled a dumpster 3/4s of the way around a park.  Threw a few firecrackers and water bottles.  Held up their middle finger a lot (so rebellious!).  Tried to block traffic, but that didn't work because some freedom lovers stopped them.  So, being the "progressives" that they are, tried to use women only to block traffic, but that didn't work either.  Helpful hint, next time use women that actually look like women and not male members of ISIS with purple hair, you might get the sympathy you were clearly farming for.  Had a little standoff in the street, then a convenient smoke bomb from the cops to give them cover for a retreat just turned it into a rout as the weird mix of racists, "'murica lovers" and free speech advocates smelled blood in the air.  Thank Og most people on both sides had some restraint and it didn't look like that many on either side wanted real violence.  It looked like it could have gotten real ugly there a couple of times.  There were very very few cops around, or at least they had a very low presence.    One of these in the future is going to get ugly.  What the hell are we going to do if/when something like this turns into 15 dead, hundreds in the hospital?

     The Black Bloc aren't farming for sympathy, but rather violent suppression of their opponents. Unfortunately for them, they aren't the hardened underground resistance that they like to think of themselves as being, and they found themselves in trouble when their targets fought back.

     Beyond that, I agree. If we don't take serious measures to defuse these situations, people are going to die. Yet as long as these people are convinced that they are revolutionaries resisting a fascist dictatorship, they'll claim to be fine with sacrifices until they actually happen.