Berkeley Police Department firing stun grenades against political opposition?

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

    I know I was doubtful before when you said that liberal institutions were tacitly allowing this stuff, but it is amazing to see how this played out just as everyone expected. I'm starting to think that the only way a free speech demonstration can happen in Berkeley without Antifa violence is for the National Guard to be deployed to keep the peace here.

I love free speech demonstrations:





This dude looks like he loves free speech:


These guys love freedom and national socialism:

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Anyways, I agree that the Berkeley PD is soft, weak and allowed this to happen: they should have rounded up as many of these fascists thugs as possible at the first sign of violence. Of course, police officers anywhere and everyone are staffed with fascists and Republicans so this is probably asking too much, I realize that it's in their nature to bloody socialists and to coddle neo-Nazis so this policy is the best policy possible.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Anyways, I agree that the Berkeley PD is soft, weak and allowed this to happen: they should have rounded up as many of these fascists thugs as possible at the first sign of violence. Of course, police officers anywhere and everyone are staffed with fascists and Republicans so this is probably asking too much, I realize that it's in their nature to bloody socialists and to coddle neo-Nazis so this policy is the best policy possible.

     DFB, I know you know better than that. The anarchists have consistently shown up and started violence. Demanding that the police arrest their targets when they are reacting to Antifa provocation on account of those targets being "fascist thugs" is Orwellian in the utmost.

I'm actually very serious about this. The media's portrayal of these confrontations is very skewed; the people who attend these rallies are not typical Trump supporters. They are fascists who seek to provoke violence. In the interests of fairness, I support locking up anti-fascists as well, that's a given because I'm not a nut, but the notion that one side does this and the other does not is a myth.

I'm not sure what there is to discuss here tbh. The law should be enforced in a fair manner. I hate fascists and sympathize with anti-fascists, even though they, too, are rather stupid.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Wait ... did I sleep through some constitutional amendment that says people with abhorrent views no longer have the right to free speech? Because even assuming these rightwingers are unrepentant Nazis, I don't see why that precludes them from having a free speech rally.

looks like a free speech rally to me. ah yes, the noble nazi salute, that free speech symbol.

funny how every symbol of free speech seems to be a swastika or an apartheid south africa flag but when the red flag is flown it's a symbol of authoritarianism.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Anyways, I see that people are deflecting from my chief point, which is that these are not free speech rallies. Fine, I agree that the law should be enforced impartially to punish those who physically assault others; I hope that is universally agreed upon. Nevertheless, we must not pretend that the fascist thugs who support seizing the state to curtail political activity on the left and to oppress racial/ethnic minorities embody the freedom of expression or care about the freedom of speech. They do not and this is not what they stand for. If you are a sucker who guzzles snake oil, it might be easy to fall for the ploy that Milo or goose-stepping fascists are supporting the freedom of speech; they are trying to provoke violence so that they can be martyrs.

This will be my last post in this thread.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Wait ... did I sleep through some constitutional amendment that says people with abhorrent views no longer have the right to free speech? Because even assuming these rightwingers are unrepentant Nazis, I don't see why that precludes them from having a free speech rally.

looks like a free speech rally to me. ah yes, the noble nazi salute, that free speech symbol.

funny how every symbol of free speech seems to be a swastika or an apartheid south africa flag but when the red flag is flown it's a symbol of authoritarianism.

As I mentioned before a couple of guys throwing up Roman salutes amongst a large crowd of people does not a nazi rally make. Furthermore the question here is about the police response to leftist aggression. I would guess that the guy in the photo is probably not a big fan of free speech. That's his opinion (assuming he's not just LARPing). That doesn't mean that he was provoking or starting any violence.

There are people in this thread who don't agree with free speech. One of them has a signature that includes a celebration of a totalitarian murderous government that abolished all freedom of speech. Does that give people the right to throw massive rocks at her 'in self defense'?

I don't care about what sort of Nazi these freaks are; the man interviewed in that photo claimed he is a National Socialist. Maybe he's not a Hitlerite. Who cares. He's some sort of Nazi/fascist. The semantics don't matter.

And yes, traveling to Berkeley of all places to throw up Nazi-salutes is provoking violence in the sense that these people knew it was going to happen, prepared for it and embraced it. Should that have been the response? No, but this is what provocation looks like. If I traveled to your house and started calling you a pedophile, a child-raper and a Nazi, that would be provocation. If I did it in the public square, it would likely be legal (let's say you live in America for the sake of simplicity). If you responded to be with force, that would be illegal. However, the violence would have been provoked. I was asking for it and, in fact, demanding it.

There's nothing noble or worth defending about the creeps who went to this rally. They're barely human beings as far as I am concerned. If someone supports censoring them, I disagree with them, but that's besides the point. I have the right to discuss the ideological objectives of people who host rallies like this and to avoid discussing the violent response to them. I won't play into their narrative of martyrdom. It's sought out. They are not victims. They are wastrels, degenerates and losers.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

they had sympathetic women of color at the nuremburg rallies, did they

I'll never understand the freaks who are non-white and turn up to stand in solidarity with people who want to throw them in chains but they exist, who care tbh.