God and the problem of sincere disbelief
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Meclazine for Israel
Meclazine
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« on: March 29, 2017, 11:47:56 PM »

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-29/god-and-the-problem-of-sincere-disbelief/8378108?pfmredir=sm

Is belief in god essential to morality?

Not any more.

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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2017, 12:46:05 AM »

Theocentric morality is far from the only reason to believe in God. Even tho I'm a firm theist, I don't deny that one can have a workable system of ethics without a god.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 10:19:59 AM »

You don't need to believe in the Christian God in order to be moral, but you do need to believe in the Christian God in order to have Christian morality. Which is what most Western non-believers believe in: "the inherent dignity of the immortal soul", minus a belief in souls or immortality.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 03:27:53 PM »

I've always found it a tired debate whether or not you "need" religion to be moral or not ... no religious people I know actually believe that, yet it's a constantly mocked notion by atheists.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2017, 05:14:21 PM »

I've always found it a tired debate whether or not you "need" religion to be moral or not ... no religious people I know actually believe that, yet it's a constantly mocked notion by atheists.

You know, as someone who hasn't believed in God for more than a decade, this is actually a challenging question to me. I used to think it was obvious that one could be moral without religion, and that saying or implying otherwise was deeply insulting and a proof of close-mindedness, but since I've actually started giving more thought to the issue, I can actually see where this argument is coming from.

It's incredibly hard to ground any coherent universal moral framework on entirely secular first principles - I know because I've tried very hard (and still am). Kant and Rawls are those I've seen come closest, but Kant is kind of cheating (quite ironically, from him!), and Rawls' veil of ignorance has a distinctly metaphysical feel to it. Otherwise, the easy alternative is to go down the subjectivist road like Afleitch (if I understand him correctly) does. But that's just unacceptable to me.

Now, obviously this doesn't mean that it's impossible for a nonbeliever to act morally - moral intuitions are still there, and, in a person raised under decently sound values, they go a great deal to guide toward a moral life. But relying entirely on intuitions is very dangerous, and I know we should strive for more than that. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that I don't have faith and can't just trick myself into pretending to have it. Sure, sincerity is not enough, but I'd say it's still better than insincere belief.
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Small L
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2017, 05:37:30 PM »

I think the claim that you must believe in God to be a good person is a distorted version of the truth that to the extent any of us are good people, that goodness can only come from God.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2017, 07:44:36 PM »

I've always found it a tired debate whether or not you "need" religion to be moral or not ... no religious people I know actually believe that, yet it's a constantly mocked notion by atheists.

This

The argument is usually one or both of:

1) Secular people can be moral without religion but their moral framework doesn't work without religion. i.e. Why is anything we do good or bad if we are just 'lucky mud'

2) Western secularists are piggybacking off Christian morality
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SingingAnalyst
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 06:10:36 PM »

As a Christian (though not a fundamentalist), I do not think believing in G-d is essential to morality. At one time my Christian experience and beliefs were fundamentalist; not any more. What I have learned is: (1) one can disbelieve any aspect of the Christian theological or even ethical system, and it does not make one immoral; and (2) morality is often confused with unselfishness.  The elements of Christianity I have retained are (1) a belief in the benefit of forgiveness (within reason) for all parties involved and (2) a disposition to side with the underdog, or with one who is being unfairly attacked.
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