David Brooks: Western civilization is collapsing

[Beet]

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/21/opinion/the-crisis-of-western-civ.html

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Western "liberalism"--which appears to in fact be the crowning triumph of "Western civilization"--has been poised to collapse as a result of its own contradictions for probably a century.

[Beet]

Western "liberalism"--which appears to in fact be the crowning triumph of "Western civilization"--has been poised to collapse as a result of its own contradictions for probably a century.

To be replaced by fascism?

[Ban my account ffs!]

Western "liberalism"--which appears to in fact be the crowning triumph of "Western civilization"--has been poised to collapse as a result of its own contradictions for probably a century.

That's what keeps it going, young padawan!  Ever heard of a lean-to?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Western "liberalism"--which appears to in fact be the crowning triumph of "Western civilization"--has been poised to collapse as a result of its own contradictions for probably a century.

To be replaced by fascism?

By... something. A society based on the celebration of the individual is not a society at all. Liberalism took other prior forms, such as nationalism, semi-rationalized statism, civic republicanism, and so on, and all of these might have been much more stable.

[ApatheticAustrian]

while we are collapsing in the slowest of motions, all of our "enemies" - more like competitors - like BRICS or greater asia...are collapsing before us.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If it is, it's completely the fault of those like David Brooks who said we had to invade Iraq.

[JA]

If it is, it's completely the fault of those like David Brooks who said we had to invade Iraq.

I'm pretty sure an entire civilization wouldn't collapse because of one war; a war that was relatively insignificant.

[JA]

"Western Civilization" isn't coming to an end, but the post-WWII Era certainly appears to be. Numerous institutions are undergoing crises; traditional political parties are collapsing; the public is becoming increasingly skeptical or outright resistant to media, educational, governmental, and religious institutions and their agendas; and fears of outsized influence by moneyed interests has increased dramatically while sources for organized resistance have declined. Add to that austerity measures across Europe, sluggish economic recovery, rising inequality, nearly unprecedented levels of migration, and a transforming globalized economy that has displaced millions, and you get our present crisis.

Basically, the old ideas that applied to the 20th century no longer work. They're outdated and unfit for the new challenges of 21st century life, yet our institutions have failed to respond to this with any coherent alternative or vision. The best we get is technocrats promising to manage and ensure stability through expertise, and reactionary ideologues who're seeking to gain power through disruption of our current order. The left has essentially collapsed, the center is widely reviled, but upheld simply as a protection against the increasingly powerful reactionary rightwing. We're unmoored from the comfort of the predictability of the world of Pax Americana and liberalism. We're in a stage of development similar to the Industrial Revolution, yet few are even acknowledging this revolutionary change in the world.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

It's not "Western Civilization" that's collapsing. It's a global system based on ever-increasing across the board returns that's teetering. We, as a culture and species, have done *amazing* things that should not be discounted. But we've done so via what has become a pyramid scheme of expanding productivity, population, and resource consumption. I believe that modern civilization doesn't need to be a pyramid scheme. But changing to something that will be sustainable, yet provide a good quality of life to the public AND uphold good ides like freedom, justice, equality and human rights is going to indeed require an end to the mode of capitalism practiced in the United States. Not just the zombie vulture capitalism of the financial sector, but all the absurd wealth concentration is going to end, one way or another.

It can either end well - as a deliberate shift that does not leave flaming chaos in its wake, or its end can be forced up on is with outcomes that will be horrible for much of the human race. But either way, it is ending.  And whatever shape the civilization on the other side takes, it will probably not include guys who write newspaper columns living in four million dollar homes. So yes, David Brooks' civilization is collapsing.

[Beet]

If it is, it's completely the fault of those like David Brooks who said we had to invade Iraq.

I'm pretty sure an entire civilization wouldn't collapse because of one war; a war that was relatively insignificant.

IIRC world Freedom House scores peaked around 2005, two years after the start of the war. There's an underappreciated case that the neocons' craven usage of liberal, democratic ideology for their corrupt cause created a hidden crisis of confidence. People started to think liberal democracy wasn't for certain societies (like Iraq) that were better off with a strongman (like Saddam), and that was the first knife in the heart of classical liberalism. After all, the Declaration of Independence purports to be universal... "All Men are Created Equal..." So if it's not for Iraq, what else is wrong with it?

The Bush administration pushed for elections in Gaza in 2006 only to be shocked when Hamas won. That forced the West to face the stark choice, would they rather an authoritarian PLO or an elected Hamas? A lot of Westerners answered the former, but the System never really appreciated how serious the complications of that choice was. The foundations of our form of government have not been seriously debated since the Pamphlet Wars of the 1790s, so the idea that anything might strike against the core of it is not easily recognized.

[krazen1211]

I am amused. The party of 'voter rights' is now wailing because the population is not voting properly!

Oh, nevermind. They do that all the time.

[Blue3]

The current system of elitism is collapsing. And the elite complain it's the end of civilization.

Maybe they should have better responded to people's concerns over their economic conditions.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

I am amused. The party of 'voter rights' is now wailing because the population is not voting properly!

Oh, nevermind. They do that all the time.

David Brooks is (was?) a Republican.

[Antonio the Sixth]

ay lmao

[krazen1211]

I am amused. The party of 'voter rights' is now wailing because the population is not voting properly!

Oh, nevermind. They do that all the time.

David Brooks is (was?) a Republican.

Yes, I remember those claims. He is a, uh, Republican who happens to constantly vote for Democrat Presidents. Strange fellow to be sure, but he is at least a useful idiot to his employer.

[pbrower2a]

The contradictions within Western civilization force change, and tendencies of historical system give some of the contradictions either temporary or longer-lasting advantages.

(Effectively I fused Hegel and Darwin in that one sentence).

Western civilization is no more collapsing now than it was in the 1920s, when the trends were truly putrid. Is anyone ready to read some ponderous tomes on eugenics? Let alone take a dive into the cesspool that is Alfred Rosenberg's Myth of the 20th Century?   

Our modern world, which emerged from the late middle ages in the swaddling clothes of the Renaissance, has been working itself through its problems for about 600 years. We all recognize that we have too much to lose in any reversion to the barbarism of the middle ages. Our patterns of thought can change (try writing a novel without the influence of Freud -- possible until about 1900 but impossible now) -- but so can our institutions.

You can trust that if America goes bad enough, then there will be other countries to take or share our current role. But that, no matter how bad it is for Americans, will be another triumph of Western civilization.   

[Shameless Lefty Hack]

Not to offer a snappy hot take, but IMHO Western Civilization started collapsing when it started producing people like David Brooks and lionizing them as paragons of deep thought.

[The Other Castro]

It's pretty obvious that Beet is secretly David Brooks.

[dead0man]

Yeah, I've been hearing this pretty much constantly from one Chicken Little or another since I was a little kid in the 70s.  History tells me it didn't start then and I don't expect it to stop any time soon.

[Person Man]

This is like any doomsayer deal. Nobody got it right but all it takes is one person to get it right. A lot to be concerned about but things have always turned around and usually better than ever.

[Vosem]

Tbt when people said this after the French Revolution

Or the Turkish conquest of Constantinople

We're gonna be fine

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Tbt when people said this after the French Revolution

Or the Turkish conquest of Constantinople

We're gonna be fine

Take a person from either of those moments, plop them in the present, and tell them that society hasn't radically changed.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Yeah, I've been hearing this pretty much constantly from one Chicken Little or another since I was a little kid in the 70s.  History tells me it didn't start then and I don't expect it to stop any time soon.

It's like that Thanksgiving myth that turkeys tell each other about. No turkey has ever actually seen it, so obviously it's going to be free food and shelter from Mr. Farmer forever.

[Skill and Chance]

This is like any doomsayer deal. Nobody got it right but all it takes is one person to get it right. A lot to be concerned about but things have always turned around and usually better than ever.

This is hardly the most strained "Western Civilization" has ever been.  In the 1930's, we were one communist or fascist revolution in the US from losing it for good come WWII.  That was the closest call "Western Civilization" has faced since the 18th Century.   Conditions are hardly that bad now.