In your opinion, can a Christian believe in universal salvation?
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  In your opinion, can a Christian believe in universal salvation?
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Author Topic: In your opinion, can a Christian believe in universal salvation?  (Read 1440 times)
TDAS04
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« on: April 27, 2017, 01:03:05 PM »

Well?
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RI
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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 01:12:23 PM »

There are plenty of Purgatorial Universalists out there... I don't believe in it as I think it denies human free will and contradicts a number of Jesus's statements, but that doesn't mean a Christian can't believe in it; there are far more egregious things out there some Christians believe in.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2017, 01:13:12 PM »

Of course!  A Christian can theoretically believe a whole lot of things.  One of my favorite pastors I've ever had stated he did not believe in Hell, as he couldn't reconcile the God he'd come to believe in sending anyone there ... I suppose that doesn't explicitly endorse "universal salvation," but it kind of implies it.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2017, 01:41:12 PM »
« Edited: April 27, 2017, 01:45:59 PM by En Marche Forcée »

None of my business of course, but I'm convinced that belief in it is the fundamental requirement for Christianity to be morally sound. I just can't reconcile any other view with my idea of good and evil. Even the free will argument doesn't really make any sense to me.
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RI
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2017, 03:09:25 PM »

None of my business of course, but I'm convinced that belief in it is the fundamental requirement for Christianity to be morally sound. I just can't reconcile any other view with my idea of good and evil. Even the free will argument doesn't really make any sense to me.

Why should God force salvation on someone who knowingly rejects it?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2017, 05:11:01 PM »

Of course!  A Christian can theoretically believe a whole lot of things.  One of my favorite pastors I've ever had stated he did not believe in Hell, as he couldn't reconcile the God he'd come to believe in sending anyone there ... I suppose that doesn't explicitly endorse "universal salvation," but it kind of implies it.
Not necessarily. He could be an annihilationist who believes that the wicked will be utterly destroyed at the second coming rather than condemned to eternal burning.
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TDAS04
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2017, 05:22:22 PM »
« Edited: April 27, 2017, 08:20:26 PM by TDAS04 »

The idea that some are condemned to an eternity in hell seems incompatible with the belief in a God who loves all.

My Lutheran pastor has implied that everyone will go to heaven.  He said that salvation comes through undeserved grace, and that not even believing in the wrong religion can keep a person from receiving that grace.

Jesus died for everyone's sins, didn't he?
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2017, 05:40:04 PM »

Sure, I'd could go further and say that even universal exaltation is possible, if either are so desired.
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°Leprechaun
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2017, 05:42:40 PM »

That's one of those questions that depends on how you define words. It simply depends on how you define "Christian". "Universalism" has long been considered a heresy by many Christians, of course.

A Unitarian is someone who believes that he or she is to good to be damned, while a Universalist believes that "god" is too good to damn anyone. These days there are many Unitarian Universalists who choose not to call themselves "Christian", although, of course, some still do.
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2017, 06:29:43 PM »

I'm something akin to what RI calls a "Purgatorial Universalist", although I try to be careful to think of it as something that I hope is true rather than assert outright. I understand the free will argument and think that it does make sense, but I also think that it's pious and charitable to maintain that hope.
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Blue3
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2017, 06:36:15 PM »
« Edited: April 27, 2017, 06:46:44 PM by Blue3 »

None of my business of course, but I'm convinced that belief in it is the fundamental requirement for Christianity to be morally sound. I just can't reconcile any other view with my idea of good and evil. Even the free will argument doesn't really make any sense to me.

Why should God force salvation on someone who knowingly rejects it?
That's like asking "why would God force existence on someone who doesn't want it?" or "why would God love someone?"

I believe everyone will go to heaven, that Jesus saved everyone. I'm not 100% sure how, but a few possibilities:

1. at the moment of death, the truth is revealed to us... and everyone simply chooses to go to heaven

2. after death, either some people don't love God so God's light seems to "burn" them while the same light brings bliss to others...
or after death, some people don't love God, and God allows them to go to a spiritual "place" where God's influence is minimal...
===> but in either case, the individual can choose to learn to love God and enter "heaven," and with eternity this is inevitable for everyone
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2017, 06:49:13 PM »

The idea that some are condemned to an eternity in hell seems incompatible with the belief in a a God who loves all.

My Lutheran pastor has implied that everyone will go to heaven.  He said that salvation comes through undeserved grace, and that not even believing in the wrong religion can keep a person from receiving that grace.

Jesus died for everyone's sins, didn't he?

That's not the issue though.

The problem isn't about God's grace, it's that Jesus himself said some things that are really hard to reconcile with universalism. I'm thinking of Matthew 25:31-46 in particular (the sheep and the goats). It's really hard (I'd say impossible) to square that passage with universalism.
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RFayette
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2017, 06:56:30 PM »

The idea that some are condemned to an eternity in hell seems incompatible with the belief in a a God who loves all.

My Lutheran pastor has implied that everyone will go to heaven.  He said that salvation comes through undeserved grace, and that not even believing in the wrong religion can keep a person from receiving that grace.

Jesus died for everyone's sins, didn't he?


That's not the issue though.

The problem isn't about God's grace, it's that Jesus himself said some things that are really hard to reconcile with universalism. I'm thinking of Matthew 25:31-46 in particular (the sheep and the goats). It's really hard (I'd say impossible) to square that passage with universalism.

I agree with your reasoning and have come to similar conclusions (though it's very unfortunate, as it's something I really wish were true Sad ).

 But I grew up going to a PCUSA (and when I was little, UCC) church, and every pastor there was clear they believed in an empty hell or no hell at all.  I remember during confirmation the pastor said that Jesus talked about hell to show that our actions do indeed have grave consequences (which fire was a symbol), but the ultimate theme is redemption....I think he also said something related to "progressive revelation," saying that as man's ideas of what are humane change, this is an indication of us getting closer to the 'universal' truth, so to speak, and scripture is simply a big step on that path, so the origin of their view comes from a framework which largely departs from orthodoxy.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2017, 07:03:10 PM »

Oh to answer the OP, it depends. Universalism isn't consistent with scripture, but thankfully our salvation doesn't depend on our thinking abilities. That said 'logical' universalism requires changing some pretty significant aspects of the faith, enough to distort the Gospel and put oneself outside of Christianity.

The idea that some are condemned to an eternity in hell seems incompatible with the belief in a a God who loves all.

My Lutheran pastor has implied that everyone will go to heaven.  He said that salvation comes through undeserved grace, and that not even believing in the wrong religion can keep a person from receiving that grace.

Jesus died for everyone's sins, didn't he?


That's not the issue though.

The problem isn't about God's grace, it's that Jesus himself said some things that are really hard to reconcile with universalism. I'm thinking of Matthew 25:31-46 in particular (the sheep and the goats). It's really hard (I'd say impossible) to square that passage with universalism.

I agree with your reasoning and have come to similar conclusions (though it's very unfortunate, as it's something I really wish were true Sad ).

 But I grew up going to a PCUSA (and when I was little, UCC) church, and every pastor there was clear they believed in an empty hell or no hell at all.  I remember during confirmation the pastor said that Jesus talked about hell to show that our actions do indeed have grave consequences (which fire was a symbol), but the ultimate theme is redemption....I think he also said something related to "progressive revelation," saying that as man's ideas of what are humane change, this is an indication of us getting closer to the 'universal' truth, so to speak, and scripture is simply a big step on that path, so the origin of their view comes from a framework which largely departs from orthodoxy.

And that is why I am PCA and not PCUSA or PCC.
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Blue3
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2017, 07:32:30 PM »

The idea that some are condemned to an eternity in hell seems incompatible with the belief in a a God who loves all.

My Lutheran pastor has implied that everyone will go to heaven.  He said that salvation comes through undeserved grace, and that not even believing in the wrong religion can keep a person from receiving that grace.

Jesus died for everyone's sins, didn't he?

That's not the issue though.

The problem isn't about God's grace, it's that Jesus himself said some things that are really hard to reconcile with universalism. I'm thinking of Matthew 25:31-46 in particular (the sheep and the goats). It's really hard (I'd say impossible) to square that passage with universalism.

The "separating" that occurs in many parables (another is the crop with the weeds) is the separating of the good and bad within ourselves.

Or it could be that it turns out there are no "goats" or "weeds".
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RI
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2017, 07:43:52 PM »

None of my business of course, but I'm convinced that belief in it is the fundamental requirement for Christianity to be morally sound. I just can't reconcile any other view with my idea of good and evil. Even the free will argument doesn't really make any sense to me.

Why should God force salvation on someone who knowingly rejects it?

2. after death, either some people don't love God so God's light seems to "burn" them while the same light brings bliss to others...

This is essentially the Eastern Orthodox belief regarding the nature of Hell. In essence, the only difference between Hell and purgatory is that one is permanent and the other temporary.

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A couple of issues: First, the only way this can even work is if we assume temporal causality and the nature of human choice extends outside our plane of existence, as it were. I'm not sure that's really consistent with traditional Christian thought; generally, our decisions are thought to more or less "set" into place at the time of death.

Second, God torturing people into submitting to and "loving" Him might be even worse and more malevolent than eternal separation/other theories of Hell; also, this seems to contradict so many other points regarding free will and the point of Jesus and faith that I'm not even sure where to begin. If God will just torture everyone or overpower them into loving Him in the end, what's the point in everything else He's done? What's the point in free will? What's the point in belief? What's the point in Jesus's death? Can such a God really be called just? Such an outcome seems to strip away any sense of responsibility for one's actions... I just can't see it.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2017, 10:14:13 PM »

That's one of those questions that depends on how you define words. It simply depends on how you define "Christian". "Universalism" has long been considered a heresy by many Christians, of course.

A Unitarian is someone who believes that he or she is to good to be damned, while a Universalist believes that "god" is too good to damn anyone. These days there are many Unitarian Universalists who choose not to call themselves "Christian", although, of course, some still do.

Technically, a classical Unitarian held that the Father came first, with the Christ and the Holy Spirit both proceeding from the Father, yet before the Universe we inhabit came to be.  But yeah, they got a bit wishy-washy IMO and came to hold that all forms of the Divine are united into a single Unitarian whole. At least around here, I'd say that a minority of UUs consider themselves Christian, unless one includes those who think Jesus was a great teacher/philosopher/rabbi but not necessarily Divine himself. (Or at least no more than any other person might have the potential to be Divine.)
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Blue3
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2017, 11:37:18 PM »

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I don't know why that's "traditional Christian thought." When we die, we're still in this universe. There's just another plane/layer, invisible to us, in the universe, that we'd exist in after we die. Infinite time to explore the entire spacetime of the universe, learn all the infinite information out there, reunite with others and make new friendships, etc. It's not timeless, it's within the universe, and God is the "light" that radiates everywhere and illuminates everything.


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That's not what it would be. It would us, our entire life history, laid bare and naked before God and everyone else, along with simultaneously knowing God and therefore the ideal and how far we fell short. Once we learn to love ourselves, and forgive ourselves, the "burning shame" goes away... it comes from us and our mindset, not God.


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God doesn't torture anyone, or overpower anyone.

I highly highly value free will, and reject predestination.


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Jesus's sacrifice, his love, made it all possible. Following Jesus is following love... and it will make it that much easier to come to God and bliss in the afterlife.


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Why not?
And is a God who says "follow me, or you'll go to hell in infinite pain forever, with no chance" better than what I'm describing?


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How? We have to live with each and every one of our actions, and confront ourselves in the mirror, our flaws perfectly apparent to not only ourselves and God but everyone. If we lived a life of love, that makes it that much easier to forgive ourselves and love God and get over it, if we suffer it at all.  We'll never be able to change our past.
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Zioneer
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2017, 01:59:38 AM »

Sure, I'd could go further and say that even universal exaltation is possible, if either are so desired.

Mormon high-five!

Though we do have the caveat with outer darkness and all that.
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bore
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2017, 11:50:53 AM »
« Edited: April 28, 2017, 02:24:06 PM by bore »

I posted this article the last time this topic came up, but it's a good enough read that I have no difficulty posting it again.

The crux of the matter, to me, is summed up early on in the piece:

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and, regarding the Free Will defence:
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The idea that some are condemned to an eternity in hell seems incompatible with the belief in a a God who loves all.

My Lutheran pastor has implied that everyone will go to heaven.  He said that salvation comes through undeserved grace, and that not even believing in the wrong religion can keep a person from receiving that grace.

Jesus died for everyone's sins, didn't he?

That's not the issue though.

The problem isn't about God's grace, it's that Jesus himself said some things that are really hard to reconcile with universalism. I'm thinking of Matthew 25:31-46 in particular (the sheep and the goats). It's really hard (I'd say impossible) to square that passage with universalism.

The problem with scripture is that the gospels were not written in english Tongue What is clear is that in the early days of the church plenty of greek speakers (which, after all is what the gospels were written in) like Origen and Gregory of Nyssa and so on, interpreted Matthew 25:46 as meaning for "a long time" But anyway, if you wish you can easily find seemingly universalist verses in the New Testament in english, like 1 Corinithians 3 10-15. This isn't an issue where scripture is unambiguous.
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