S6: Southern Heritage Act (passed)

[Wisconsin+17]

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Represents 'their' enslavement?

When were they enslaved?

[fhtagn]

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Unfortunately the side that doesn't want it flown is tearing down Confederate monuments, digging up Confederate graveyards. The issue isn't that they believe it represents slavery, the issue is that they are trying to remove it entirely from history.

That is wrong. How can we accommodate people that believe that the entire existence of the confederacy is a stain on their personal history, despite the fact that none of them have ever lived under slavery?

Yeah, I get it that some people might be offended, but look at it this way. Irish people were slaves too, Irish people had the entire potato famine where England starved them rather than try to save their lives.

No one living today has been a slave. Do we have a right to be aggrieved for what some of our ancestors may have suffered?

I'm fine with protecting the Stars and Bars, as well as protecting monuments and graveyards. While I don't think it represents all of the South, we should never erase history. People can't learn from past mistakes if we can't even recognize that they existed in the first place.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Thank you. Exactly.

There is nothing in the flag that 'represents' slavery. It is a blue cross saltire with the stars representing the Rebel states. 

[fhtagn]

And to note with one of Ben's previous comments, digging up and destroying grave sites is vile. I get that people have their rights to be unhappy with the confederacy, but one should never desecrate a grave. Those people are someone's ancestors, people who had loved ones who cared about those people and the lives they lived. Many confederate soldiers were not slave owners,  and to lump them as such is unfair, especially when they cannot be present to defend their reasons for fighting.

[Wisconsin+17]

I think the number was something like 3 percent of Southerners at the time owned slaves.

[diptheriadan]

I don't believe the bill talks about banning the Confederate flag or other historical Confederate artifacts. To my understanding, it talks about making the Confederate flag (I would suggest changing the wording to the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia) the official flag of the South. As I stated before, I don't believe this flag properly represents the majority of Southerners. If people want to fly the flag, that's ay-okay by me, but I just don't believe that the feelings a flag should conjure up are going to be conjured up by this flag.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Given the recent vandalism attacks, I'm going to amend this bill to protect Confederate cemetaries and monuments throughout the south, along with permitting flying the Stars and Bars.

I'm willing to take down explicitly flying it outside of the delegates. To me it's more important to protect the cemetaries and monuments, and the right of people to fly the flag without having people try to sue them for it.

[diptheriadan]

Oooh. I reread it. I apologize. I'm cool with it. Still would want it to be more friendly.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Ok. Glad to hear that. Not intending to poke the bear here.

Why don't I do that amendment now while I'm here.

[Wisconsin+17]

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[fhtagn]

I thought you were taking out the chamber flying the stars and bars? unless I misread

[Wisconsin+17]

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Dip seems ok with that. But yeah, I don't have a problem taking that part out of the bill.

[diptheriadan]

I'm cool with it for things like memorials, like in South Carolina.

[Wisconsin+17]

What about flying it in the delegates? Do you prefer that out or in?

[JustinTimeCuber]

All of that is bad or unnecessary.

1. If it's about the Chamber of Delegates, I'm a NO vote automatically.
2. Cemeteries are already protected by law
3. People already can fly a Confederate flag if they want
4. What regulations?

[diptheriadan]

As a memorial, yeah sure. Although, I would suggest against it. As I said above, I don't believe that the Confederate flag is very popular with a very large portion of Southern society, so it could result in backlash.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Yeah, ok.

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There's been a push to remove Confederate cemetaries and to remove their legal protections. Also I see you've left out what's happened with Confederate monuments.

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There's been talk of a German style ban, on the production and sale of the Stars and Bars.

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See above, plus the whole controversy with Nikki Haley.

[JustinTimeCuber]

2. Well, let's not do that and we should be fine, K?
3. If we do that, I'll sue.

[Wisconsin+17]

Well, I think the laws that are in place are inadequate to protect the cemetaries and the monuments. Hence this bill.

[NeverAgain]

See, there is a huge difference here. What you are talking about is the perceived persecution of individuals and monuments for their beliefs on the Confederate flag and the flying of it. Your solution? Make this symbol of racism and hatred (for some) a forced representation of all Southerners, not fix or address the perception of a problem you have. Just anger folks more.

Now, listen, I have had family on both sides of the war of Northern Aggression (my multitude of great grandfather was a First sergeant in the Virginia Army). So, I really do understand and sympathize with the ideal of this being a symbol of history for the South. That being said, I wish not to impose these beliefs on those who have a very different familial history and view of this banner.

I am perfectly fine with individuals choosing what or what not to fly (and businesses selling them), that is their Constitutional right of Free Speech. Of course that must also fly both ways, as many places refuse to sell the Confederate flag, because of it's symbolic hatred, but that's besides the point.

Main issue: First off, we already have a Southern Regional Flag, which looks just dandy to me. Secondly, the role of our representative government is to best represent all of the Southern people, not only a few, and certainly not directly attempt to offend or outrage. Thirdly, this isn't about people getting "thicker skins". This is about basic human rights and dignity. If our government was to incite hate and bigotry and thereby restrict other persons ability for free speech, we'd be desecrating the very principles of liberty of individualism that the Civil War was fought over.

So, look, individuals or memorials have every right to uphold their tradition, but our government has no authority and no right to impose this on all citizens, no matter if it is tradition to some or not.

[Wisconsin+17]

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Nonsense.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/24/new-orleans-takes-down-confederate-monuments

The removal of confederate monuments and the desecration of Confederate graves is a direct threat to the heritage of the South. This bill would ban the removal of both.

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What beliefs precisely are we imposing? That the Confederacy existed? That it represented the union of Rebel States?

I see no issue with flying a flag that is the legitimate historical flag of the region. Six Flags over Texas flies the stars and bars. (along with the Texas republic), etc.

I see no reason why we cannot and should not do the same.  

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Why couldn't we fly both along with Old Glory? It's not like we are limited to just one flag. It is a historical flag of the region.

[NeverAgain]

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First off, no it doesn't. Unless I am reading a different bill, all this does is give the South another flag... Secondly, that [what you proposed as evidence] was a locality decision, and I am very much not inclined in a proposal to desecrate the sacred balance of between our regional government and our local cities and towns.

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Beliefs of racism, hate, and injustice, all of which were those that many fought and died for in the Civil War. Should we be honoring something because it existed (and lost by the way), if that is the case, I see a whole lot more need in other cases, then a "rebel" cause whose main source of angered died 152 years ago.

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First off, should we really be modeling our flags and our representation based on amusement parks? I mean, I am all for a new Mickey Mouse flag, but I think that's a subject for a later date. I mean, it is called 6 flags, for the 6 flags of Texas which kind of has an obligation to show all the flags, and has every right to do so as a private organization. We are under no such obligation as a government that represents all persons of the South.

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Well, I guess I consider myself a flag traditionalist. Editing the wiki will be a challenge if we start down a slippery slope of adding as many flags as we want based on our own feelings. I guess this will open the gateway for the Black Panther flag of the South, but as we've established, we can have as many flags as we want, just because a certain group wants it, right?

[Wisconsin+17]

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You might want to re-read the amended bill then.

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I have no problem restraining local governments from destroying historical monuments and digging up Confederate cemeteries.

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What exactly about the flag symbolizes slavery?

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It's honored today throughout the South in official buildings throughout the South. I see no reason why this chamber of delegates should be any different.

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Given that to you it's a representation of 'racism', Six Flags seems to do just fine with the stars and bars.

The same can be said of the Texas capitol building.

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Again, it's a historical southern flag.

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Then you ought to support flying the Stars and Bars.

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How many historical flags has the South as an entity had?

[JustinTimeCuber]

Ben, you keep doing a double standard. The bill cites what you perceive as positive SYMBOLS of the flag, but when people say it represents slavery, you reject that because "it's just some colors on a piece of cloth".

[Wisconsin+17]

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The stars represent the individual states of the confederacy. That's why it has as many stars as it does, no different than the 50 stars on Old Glory.

What about the Stars and Bars says, "we support slavery?"