Opinion of Scottish Nationalism
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  Opinion of Scottish Nationalism
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Author Topic: Opinion of Scottish Nationalism  (Read 2327 times)
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CrabCake
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« on: May 05, 2017, 01:17:59 PM »

A horrible movement that has contributed to the destruction of the British Left.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2017, 01:38:36 PM »

A horrible movement that has contributed to the destruction of the British Left.

Honestly, have to agree.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2017, 01:57:00 PM »

FM.

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Cathcon
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2017, 02:44:08 PM »

Yuge fan.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2017, 02:54:23 PM »

     Alba gu brath!
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2017, 03:04:09 PM »

Terrible. Would only result in two weak countries, and further break any power Europe might have that does not depend on America.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2017, 03:58:26 PM »

bureaucrats in Bru..er, London shouldn't get to dictate what the Scottish people do
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Torie
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2017, 04:04:38 PM »

Silly
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afleitch
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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2017, 04:17:49 PM »

A horrible movement that has contributed to the destruction of the British Left.

In what way? Scottish Nationalism existed outside of the SNP (which itself was founded in 1934). The SNP had a disastrous election in 2003 in which the harder left; Trots and Greens were on the ascendancy. Labour began it's UK and Scottish collapse completely independently of the SNP (Labour have lost seats in 2001, 2005, 2010, 2015 and more than likely 2017; a long term decline). Labour's collapse enabled the SNP to win in 2007. They collapsed in 2011 entirely because of their own doing; their campaign was based on 'Now the Tories are back' and privately they had even decided on cabinet spots.

Then they sided with the Tories during an independence referendum. They even shared their canvass information with the Tories. The Tories were the Trojans and they were the f-cking horse! Then they collapsed in 2015. Then they decided they would become defined by 'unionists' (which they never were before) and have aided and abetted the Tories to allow them to get leapfrogged by them in 2016. And now they continue to decline. And in their continuing Stockholm syndrome, they will probably end up in coalition with the Tories across Scotland.

Labour's decline both in Scotland and the UK is self inflicted.
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2017, 04:39:40 PM »

I am not Scottish nor have I ever been to Scotland, so I have no strong feelings either way.  But I would say that the Brexit results and rollout has made me more sympathetic to the independence movement.  If I had a vote in the 2014 referendum, I probably would have voted no because Labour would have lost seats in parliament.  Now that there is going to be a hard Brexit taking place which Scots voted overwhelmingly against, I'd lean in favor of independence if a second referendum were to take place.  That is assuming Scotland would be accepted into the EU.
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JA
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2017, 04:46:32 PM »
« Edited: May 05, 2017, 04:51:30 PM by J_American »

FF.

Do not blame the Labour Party's political ineptitude on the SNP or Scottish Nationalism in general. The party is reaping what it has sown thanks to its policies and political practices over the past several decades. Scottish nationalism should be treated separately from the British left in general.

Personally, I see nothing wrong or objectionable about a Scottish desire to secede from the union. The austerity and other assorted right-wing policies, stemming largely from English political domination, should not be imposed upon another nation against its will, nor should they be forced to exit the European Union for which they voted to 'Stay.' Scotland's politics, despite devolution, continue to be dominated by the dictates of a political body composed primarily of parliamentarians, political and economic elite, and a Royal family from another nation. Where is the fairness in that?
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2017, 04:47:02 PM »

Not a fan, but it's not really my concern.

I am not Scottish nor have I ever been to Scotland, so I have no strong feelings either way.  But I would say that the Brexit results and rollout has made me more sympathetic to the independence movement.  If I had a vote in the 2014 referendum, I probably would have voted no because Labour would have lost seats in parliament.  Now that there is going to be a hard Brexit taking place which Scots voted overwhelmingly against, I'd lean in favor of independence if a second referendum were to take place.  That is assuming Scotland would be accepted into the EU.

I don't really think being in the EU with a hard border at Berwick is a more desirable deal for Scotland than staying in a non-EU UK, but there could be something I'm missing.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2017, 04:58:01 PM »

No opinion because I support self-determination.
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Figueira
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2017, 11:27:22 PM »

I don't have a strong opinion of it either way, but I don't hate it as much as other forms of "nationalism."
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Maxwell
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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2017, 11:30:08 PM »

Lean Negative (part Scottish)
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NeverAgain
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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2017, 11:35:28 PM »

Pre-Brexit: Strongly Against

Post-Brexit: Mildly Against (possibly for, at this point)
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DK_Mo82
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2017, 11:46:13 PM »

Negative bc I am against most or all nationalism. But I do feel for their circumstances and there probably will have to be anew political solution.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2017, 01:35:29 AM »


That should be more reason to be for it as I am.
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2017, 06:44:12 AM »

I don't really care
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Clyde1998
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2017, 02:36:27 PM »

I think that if Labour had a decent leader in Scotland, they wouldn't be getting overtaken by the Conservatives. I think Labour took Scotland for granted and didn't realise that a sizeable proportion of their votes in Scotland were more of an anti-Conservative vote than a pro-Labour vote. The independence referendum dispelled the myth that Scotland voting Labour could prevent a Conservative government, there has only been two periods of time since 1945 that removing Scottish votes would've lead to a different largest party in the Commons: between 1964 and 1966, and between February 1974 and October 1974. This contributed to Labour's demise in 2015.

Additionally, it's worth noting that there was an opinion poll for the Westminster election conducted about two weeks after the independence referendum; that showed the SNP on 34% and Labour on 32%. The same poll had a question on Holyrood too - that showed a very similar race to a poll taken by the same company a year prior. The real change in public opinion for that election occurred following the resignation of Johann Lamont - when she described Scottish Labour as a "branch office" of the London party. The election of Jim Murphy, one of the lead campaigners for Better Together, didn't help Labour's cause in Scotland to be able to win back 'Yes' voters following the referendum.

For Labour to win a UK election, they have to win the most seats in England. With the division within the party and the potential collapse of the party in marginal seats, I feel that this is unlikely to happen again until 2027 at the earliest - unless Labour somehow turn it around in this election.

I think that the emergence of UKIP contributed to the destruction of the left more than Scottish nationalism - taking votes from both Labour and the Conservatives, in 2015, and moving to the Conservatives almost exclusively, this time. Similarly, the Greens and the Scottish Socialist Party took votes from Labour and the SNP in 2003, before moving to the SNP in 2007 (and not because of independence). While both of those parties are pro-independence, I don't think that's why people voted for them in 2003 and neither party probably made independence one of their main campaigning points then either (especially the Greens).

The only way that Scottish nationalism could have contributed to the demise of the left in the UK, is through devolution. The asymmetrical system that Labour introduced gave a platform for the SNP to become the largest party in Scotland, while angering people in England over the lack of devolution for them. Labour's lack of action when they formed the Scottish Executive helped their down fall, as why would you set up a Parliament with real power if you're not going to use the powers?

I think that Scottish nationalism is down the list of the main causes of the downfall of the left in the UK.
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kyc0705
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2017, 02:42:28 PM »

I support civic nationalism, which I believe the modern Scottish movement inhabits.
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SATW
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2017, 02:51:20 PM »

HP. not a fan
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CMB222
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2017, 02:54:08 PM »

Vote is tied as of now. Did not expect that.
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2017, 03:18:04 PM »

The fear of an SNP effectively puppeteering a Labour government to get an "unfair advantage" for Scotland was one of the key reasons for Labour's defeat in 2015 - there's a reasons the Tories used the message constantly; because it was a fantastic scare message that diffused down to even low-info voters. Not that the SNP would care - why would they, when they had kept their ideal bogeymen in Westminster to rail against? Which is why I dislike the movement so much - my idea of a left is a group of broad people of different backgrounds that are united for the betterment of all its constituent parts. The SNP tosses that strategy out of the window by creating artificial divisions and resentment between peoplein the service of creating yet another 19th century abstraction (a nation-state) in a time when global unity is needed more than ever.

And the worst part of it is that it all comes steeped in tremendous hypocrisy. Not just the oh so leftist utopia that in its most likely form would be a corporate haven petrostate on a race to the bottom. Not just the desperate attempts to have their cake and eat it to in regards to American style flag-waving (an activity that sadly is becoming ever more popular in British life all over, more evidence to my theory that the PTB  view Northern Ireland as an ideal model for the rest of us to follow) by the vague "civic nationalism" descriptor. Not even the "Austria-as-first-victim"-esque narrative it spins, in which Scotland was some sort of disenfranchised, underprivileged colony rather than being a willing partner in the crimes of the British Empire. NO, what really gets me is the pointlessness of it all. Like Brexit, it merely serves as a distraction from the tangible in the service of chasing symbols and inflaming sectarian division.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2017, 03:21:43 PM »

I support civic nationalism, which I believe the modern Scottish movement inhabits.
Let us always support yet fear civic nationalism. For the rise of nationalistic authoritarianism will come not blatantly, but in a subtle manner, like a spy in your midst. Civic nationalism can be used as a noble means for noble ends, but it is also the beginning of other, less noble forms of nationalism.
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