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| | |-+  Have you fully read a religious text?
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Poll
Question: How much of your religion's sacred text (or that of another religion) have you read? And did they "speak" to you?
All of it - more than once   -5 (12.8%)
All of it - once   -6 (15.4%)
Most of it   -3 (7.7%)
Some of it   -7 (17.9%)
None of it   -1 (2.6%)
Yes, they "spoke" to me   -12 (30.8%)
No, they did not "speak" to me   -5 (12.8%)
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Total Voters: 23

Author Topic: Have you fully read a religious text?  (Read 2128 times)
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« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2017, 03:14:00 pm »
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I just don't get how someone can dislike a book with such fantastic stories. Who can forget Gideon, the least son of the least family of the least tribe of Israel, being the one to drive off the Philistines? Who can forget Joshua's spies in Jericho, in danger of certain death upon discovery, surviving only because a common prostitute named Rahab hid and sheltered them, only for Rahab and her family alone to be exempted from the general slaughter of the people of Jericho after the battle? Who can forget Korah rebelling against Moses, arguing that Moses didn't have a better theological justification for rule than anyone else in the tribes, only for Moses to have God literally open the ground beneath Korah and his followers and drop them straight into Hell? The stories are fantastic and vivid and compelling.

Indeed, but are they moral enough to have adherents to the bible and Christianity ablre to build an worthy ideology around?

Seems these intelligent and moral Jews did/do not think so.

 https://vimeo.com/7038401

Regards
DL
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The Mikado
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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2017, 06:36:08 pm »
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I just don't get how someone can dislike a book with such fantastic stories. Who can forget Gideon, the least son of the least family of the least tribe of Israel, being the one to drive off the Philistines? Who can forget Joshua's spies in Jericho, in danger of certain death upon discovery, surviving only because a common prostitute named Rahab hid and sheltered them, only for Rahab and her family alone to be exempted from the general slaughter of the people of Jericho after the battle? Who can forget Korah rebelling against Moses, arguing that Moses didn't have a better theological justification for rule than anyone else in the tribes, only for Moses to have God literally open the ground beneath Korah and his followers and drop them straight into Hell? The stories are fantastic and vivid and compelling.

Indeed, but are they moral enough to have adherents to the bible and Christianity ablre to build an worthy ideology around?

Seems these intelligent and moral Jews did/do not think so.

 https://vimeo.com/7038401

Regards
DL

These figures aren't supposed to be moral paragons. Look at David, whom the Bible flat-out claims is a "Man after God's own heart." David is a monstrous war criminal with a con artist's heart. That is irrelevant to his status as God's favorite person in the Old Testament. Why? Because David was a heroic figure, a conquering hero, and a man of unshaking faith even when God afflicts him (having his father-in-law go mad and try to murder him, having his first son die stillborn, etc.). The biggest mistake people make when they read the Bible is acting like these people are somehow supposed to be role models. They aren't trying to set a moral example for us.

EDIT: David is one of only two people in the entirety of the Hebrew Bible given the title "Messiah," or God's Anointed One (along with the pagan king Cyrus). The title that Christians put so much stock in for Jesus was only given to two figures in the entire OT, one of whom was a pagan nonbeliever and the other of whom was David, who is a pretty terrible king from a moral point of view. I'm sure if the authors of the Bible were looking for a moral role model to be called the Anointed of God then Josiah or Hezekiah would be called "Messiah" and not David, but they didn't. It's not David's morality or immorality that is at stake, it's his wild success. Unlike Hezekiah, who gave up the doors of the Temple to the Assyrians, or Josiah, who died in combat with Egypt, David won. David conquered Jerusalem. David defeated the Philistines again and again.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 06:41:28 pm by The Mikado »Logged



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« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2017, 06:51:20 pm »
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TL;DR on the previous post:

The Bible is not for seven year olds. Its heroes are not necessarily good people or virtuous people and make no pretension to be so. There are murderers, con artists, thieves, adulterers, and liars in the pages of the Bible and it's because these people aren't supposed to be role models, they're complex, flawed characters.
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« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2017, 04:58:37 pm »
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I just don't get how someone can dislike a book with such fantastic stories. Who can forget Gideon, the least son of the least family of the least tribe of Israel, being the one to drive off the Philistines? Who can forget Joshua's spies in Jericho, in danger of certain death upon discovery, surviving only because a common prostitute named Rahab hid and sheltered them, only for Rahab and her family alone to be exempted from the general slaughter of the people of Jericho after the battle? Who can forget Korah rebelling against Moses, arguing that Moses didn't have a better theological justification for rule than anyone else in the tribes, only for Moses to have God literally open the ground beneath Korah and his followers and drop them straight into Hell? The stories are fantastic and vivid and compelling.

Indeed, but are they moral enough to have adherents to the bible and Christianity ablre to build an worthy ideology around?

Seems these intelligent and moral Jews did/do not think so.

 https://vimeo.com/7038401

Regards
DL

These figures aren't supposed to be moral paragons. Look at David, whom the Bible flat-out claims is a "Man after God's own heart." David is a monstrous war criminal with a con artist's heart. That is irrelevant to his status as God's favorite person in the Old Testament. Why? Because David was a heroic figure, a conquering hero, and a man of unshaking faith even when God afflicts him (having his father-in-law go mad and try to murder him, having his first son die stillborn, etc.). The biggest mistake people make when they read the Bible is acting like these people are somehow supposed to be role models. They aren't trying to set a moral example for us.

EDIT: David is one of only two people in the entirety of the Hebrew Bible given the title "Messiah," or God's Anointed One (along with the pagan king Cyrus). The title that Christians put so much stock in for Jesus was only given to two figures in the entire OT, one of whom was a pagan nonbeliever and the other of whom was David, who is a pretty terrible king from a moral point of view. I'm sure if the authors of the Bible were looking for a moral role model to be called the Anointed of God then Josiah or Hezekiah would be called "Messiah" and not David, but they didn't. It's not David's morality or immorality that is at stake, it's his wild success. Unlike Hezekiah, who gave up the doors of the Temple to the Assyrians, or Josiah, who died in combat with Egypt, David won. David conquered Jerusalem. David defeated the Philistines again and again.

I agree, if I can paraphrase your words, that Christians have decided to adore a God of war instead of a moral God.

It seems they only want the perks that that God will give them, even if he has morals that are more Satan-like than God-like.

Most religions have done the same and that is why, they, as the vast majority for a long time now, have gifted us with about 5,000 years of war.

As this link indicates, War is God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIQynsWpBpQ

If religious conflict is something you wish to understand further. This is a decent presentation of it's core.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDbiqlhAirE

Regards
DL
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Greatest I am
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« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2017, 05:01:04 pm »
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TL;DR on the previous post:

The Bible is not for seven year olds. Its heroes are not necessarily good people or virtuous people and make no pretension to be so. There are murderers, con artists, thieves, adulterers, and liars in the pages of the Bible and it's because these people aren't supposed to be role models, they're complex, flawed characters.

True, but you forgot the worst offender. The genocidal son murdering God, Yahweh.

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DL
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« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2017, 06:46:51 pm »
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God is not nice, God is not friendly. God is a King. I fail to see how that is a problem with the Bible.
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2017, 10:53:09 am »
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God is not nice, God is not friendly. God is a King. I fail to see how that is a problem with the Bible.

It is not. They just show a tyrannical King. My way or hell is his only option.

Regards
DL
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