Rate the stupidity of this article

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/white-people-black-hairstyles

[JustinTimeCuber]

6. More stupid than what Trump says

[AppleJackass]

Insanely Stupid

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

I think this article has a point. (Not joke)

That's right, I'm gonna go against the Atlas hivemind. Bring it on!

[Mr. Smith]

I think this article has a point. (Not joke)

That's right, I'm gonna go against the Atlas hivemind. Bring it on!

Trump had a point about TPP and NAFTA and the Bushes, we see where all that went.

[SingingAnalyst]

I think this article has a point. (Not joke)

That's right, I'm gonna go against the Atlas hivemind. Bring it on!

I would not characterize the article as "stupid", but I have a few questions:

1. Is it also wrong for white people to produce, play, or listen to Black music? Big band, jazz, old school, hip-hop, rap, R&B? Is that not also cultural appropriation?

2. What do you think the consequences should be for a white woman to appropriate Black hairstyles? Social isolation, shaming, something else?

3. What if a White woman identifies as Black, like Rachel Dolezal? Should she then be allowed to wear Black hairstyles?

Thank you.

[Mr. Reactionary]

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This is all unprovable garbage and opinion. Like these are some huge assumptions to just broadly apply to all people as though they are fact.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

Read the title of the article and thought "that's retarded"

[Xing]

Any article about "cultural appropriation" is probably terrible.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

I think this article has a point. (Not joke)

That's right, I'm gonna go against the Atlas hivemind. Bring it on!

I would not characterize the article as "stupid", but I have a few questions:

Go ahead! Disclaimer: These are my personal views on the subject.

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A generic white person playing any one of these genres isn't problematic by itself, no more than an Asian person playing classical music. That said, it's completely possible that problematic cultural appropriation can result from this. Now, cultural appropriation isn't one single thing or one singular problem; it's actual several related issues:

One is the complete and utter disrespect of the appropriated culture. There are several ways to do this:
- Disrespecting religious items, or at least not understanding the value behind them. If you're Christian, you don't want some non-Christian wearing Jesus Christ on their underwear, right?
- Adopting some part of a culture while hating another aspect, usually the people. Example: Iggy Azalea playing black music, but then using the n-word like other people use punctuation.
- Adopting and then disposing of a culture for the sake of fame or some other purpose, as if that culture is just a commodity. Example: Miley Cyrus' adoption, and then rejection, of black culture, whenever it's most convenient for her.
- Adopting a stereotyped or "wrong" version of the original cultural item. Sure, different groups adopting changed versions of the original is how cultural change usually occurs, and that's good. But if the adopter is being dishonest by passing it off as the "authentic" version, or if they're basing their version off of offensive racial and ethnic stereotypes, then it's wrong.

Another, deeper way that cultural appropriation can become problematic is if a cultural adopter, almost always someone from a more advantaged group, economically benefits in a way the original, disadvantaged group can never do because of discrimination. To use your example, even though rock music was invented by black people, the most famous rock musicians are white people, to the point that black people who like rock music are called white on the inside.

Another example would be with food. Imagine if you're a member of a minority group who wants to start an ethnic restaurant. You get your loans and your building lease (often with complications due to discrimination and possibly language barriers). You get your customer base and you're moderately successful; however, good luck expanding your place. But then imagine some white guy selling the exact same food, but becoming more successful because they have more connections, because they have easier access to loans and other benefits, or because their restaurant is perceived as "cleaner" or just "better" by the general public. And imagine if they happen to disrespect the original food (see above).

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I think any consequences should depend on if she's respecting black culture or not (see my list of ways of cultural disrespect). If she's doing everything in her power to improve the lives of black people, then she should not be punished. But if she's clearly disrespecting black culture like Iggy Azalea or Miley Cyrus do, then she should be punished, with her hairstyle being evidence for her being a hypocrite on top of being a racist. Thus, she is a worse racist than she would be otherwise. And in that case, we punish her the same way we punish other racists - with shame and more shame.

If she's neutral on race matters...then I don't think she should necessarily be punished either. But she'll likely be asked about her hairstyle anyways, in which case she very quickly will no longer be neutral.

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Interesting question. Personally, what hairstyle she wears is just icing compared to the bigger issue of identifying as "black." The problem is that even if someone adopts black hairstyles, black cooking, and other material aspects of black culture in order to identify as black, they very likely won't experience the discrimination (both historical and current) that define the black experience. So my answer would be: "Sure, wear the hairstyle (so long as you respect its origins). But that doesn't mean you're black."

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You're welcome.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

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This is all unprovable garbage and opinion. Like these are some huge assumptions to just broadly apply to all people as though they are fact.

Not all of it is completely "unprovable." For example, take black hairstyles. It's not "unprovable" and "opinion" to say that black hairstyles are stigmatized against in many situations. We can look at certain school dress codes:

- This prestigious school in South Africa attempted to ban black hairstyles, though they rescinded the ban a few days after due to protests.

- This school in Australia told two girls of South Sudanese descent to remove their braids because they "did not represent the school."

- This school in Kentucky also attempted to prohibit black hairstyles after it changed its dress code, prompting social media uproar.

In all three cases, these bans were rescinded, but only after public outrage. (So it's not like they were lifted out of the goodness of the administrators' hearts.) Admittedly, outright bans are extreme examples, but they show that black hairstyles are not seen as positively as white hairstyles.

Here's another interesting statistic, released by Pew in a survey on interracial marriage:



Source: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/05/18/intermarriage-in-the-u-s-50-years-after-loving-v-virginia/

Notice the wide gender discrepancies for couples with a black or Asian partner, in contrast to the lack of such discrepancies for couples with a white or Hispanic partner. Now keep in mind that in Western society, both black females and Asian males are considered "less desirable" than other race-gender combinations. Granted, correlation is not causation, but given that knowledge, it does not look good.

Ultimately, in America and other Western societies we have biased beauty standards, standards that favor white people and disfavor other groups. Of course, measuring beauty standards is quite hard (and experiments in social psychology are hard enough on their own!), but looking at proxies like these provide other ways to measure such standards (and provide evidence to some of the claims in the article).

[Beet]

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I don't really care? As a Christian, it doesn't bother me that millions of people celebrate a commercialized holiday literally named after the son of God, who aren't Christians. I think it's just that this thing that started out Christian has evolved into something more secular.

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Azalea is a rapper and use of the N word is common among rappers. By itself it doesn't mean she hates black people.

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You state this as if it's self evidently wrong, but it's not. Is it wrong for a Chinese immigrant to adopt Chinese culture when speaking to his relatives and parents, but discard it when speaking to other Americans without that background?

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This one I agree with you is wrong, but it's a problem of inauthenticity and stereotyping, not so-called "cultural appropriation."

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I agree that this is wrong too, but this is not a problem with so-called "cultural appropriation" either, it is a matter of white privilege in a majority-white society. Without that white privilege, the music would be judged based on how good it was, and ethnicity would not be a factor in the popularity of musicians.

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That would indeed be terrible, but again, the problem is that the white guy had more connections, easier access to loans and other benefits, and is perceived as "cleaner" and "better", presumably just by being white. In that case the problem again, is white privilege, and it would be the same problem regardless of what kind of food is being made.

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Your examples of what constitutes "respect" or not are incredibly vague. I've noticed white women are attacked for wearing black hairstyles no matter what they do. I've yet to see an example of a white woman wearing dreadlocks where SJW said, "Yes, this is how it should be done!"

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If she passed as black, why would she not experience the same reactions? All the same historical associations would be attached.

[kyc0705]

I voted "insanely stupid," but I should note that I did not read the article, nor do I know what it's about. I just think everything is terrible, and I wanted to save time.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

I don't really care? As a Christian, it doesn't bother me that millions of people celebrate a commercialized holiday literally named after the son of God, who aren't Christians. I think it's just that this thing that started out Christian has evolved into something more secular.

Religion is a sensitive subject, and different people can have different views on how to treat their religious traditions. It's kind of ironic that you choose Christmas as your example, since there are Christians who view the secularization of Christmas as very bad. War on Christmas, remember? And secularizaing certain religious traditions is a very different beast from outright trivializing said religion, as when people put Hindu gods on socks or toilet seats.

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First, you have the issue that Azalea is a white person using the n-word. By itself, that opens up a whole can of worms (to say the least), even if she's a rapper.

But the main point is that this aspect - of cultural approrpiators picking and choosing what cultural items they like best while hating the rest, especially the people - does happen. If you want another example, just recall Trump's taco bowl photoshoot.

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In your example, the Chinese immigrant has a valid reason to not use Chinese with non-Chinese speakers. How would they survive otherwise? On the other hand, Miley Cyrus adopts and discards black culture not as a matter of survival, nor as a matter of advancing the interests of the black community or black artistry, but for her own commercial purposes. Surely Ms. Cyrus can still be a famous person if she hasn't gone through the whole thing of adopting and un-adopting.

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Here we're in agreement on the general gist of it, and our disagreements are mostly details/semantics, so I won't address this.

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Again, we are in agreement, this time with respect to the idea that white privilege is the main driving force behind these discrepancies. Where we disagree is the idea of whether cultural appropriation is a special manifestation of that privilege or not. I still maintain that it is, as there is a special ironic pain that results from seeing someone be more successful than you with your culture, in a way you can never be. Sure, seing someone be more successful than you because you're discriminated against hurts in general, but to have an important part of your culture and (ahem) identity be effectively used against you makes it worse.

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First, if I was being vague, it's because there are myriad ways that one can "respect" black culture, whether by rallying for their particular political causes, tutoring/mentoring black kids, or even partaking in black cultural celebrations with other black people. Likewise there are myriad ways one can disrespect black culture. Different people will have different views on which ways are better/worse than others, or which ways should be counted at all (in either direction). What I described in my previous post are my opinions, not the views of other so-called SJWs.

As for the white women who are attacked? Were they actively helping black people, actively hurting them, or doing neither? The third option is the most likely, I presume. Considering that the default state of American society is one where white privilege and institutionalized racism rule the day, doing nothing means that this default position has not changed by one iota, and black people are still as screwed as they were yesterday. So...it's not like they help black people by doing nothing, and hence this is where the "disrespect" comes in, in the eyes of many SJWs.

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Would they? Historical reasons are (largely) why so many black people are forced off into segregated sections in American cities, why they are forced to go to inferior school districts, and why they have less wealth than white Americans. If someone who identifies as black grew up in a white household which never had to face these historical obstacles, then the answer, with regards to those aspects of life, is no.

But what about discrimination that persists in the present day? This may sound dumb, but a lot of this has to do with peoples' appearances. If someone identifies as black but looks like a stereotypical middle-class white person, then it's unlikely they would be discriminated against in daily life. If they take on the look of a stereotypically poor black person, then perhaps, but even then it wouldn't be at the same level of an actual black person.

[Beet]

Religion is a sensitive subject, and different people can have different views on how to treat their religious traditions. It's kind of ironic that you choose Christmas as your example, since there are Christians who view the secularization of Christmas as very bad. War on Christmas, remember? And secularizaing certain religious traditions is a very different beast from outright trivializing said religion, as when people put Hindu gods on socks or toilet seats.

The "War on Christmas" narrative wasn't claiming that secularizing Christmas was bad, it was claiming that pushing Christmas out of our culture is bad. And St. Nick gets put on socks and Jesus on toilet seats, too.

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That's true, no one's denying Trump is a racist, but the problem is his racism, not the fact that he had a picture taken of him with a taco bowl. The problem was the stereotyping message that went along with it.

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You can survive in this society without speaking the language, or speaking it well. It's awfully inconvenient, but you won't die. People migrate between cultural symbols as a matter of convenience. Miley Cyrus just does it on a bigger scale since she's a big celebrity. But ordinary people do the same stuff on a daily basis.

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I agree that there's a special ironic pain in it. But there are two problems. First I think attacking cultural appropriation ironically reinforces cultural imperialism.

In reality, the dominant form of adaptation is non-white people adopting European culture, since European culture is dominant. Non-white people should really ask ourselves whether we can ever fully belong to this culture. In my view the answer is no. Not without creating a new culture which is an intermix of many different cultures and people with different backgrounds having contributed to its creation. By policing whites away from alternative cultures, we are reinforcing the notion that European culture is the only universal culture. Instead we should be doing the opposite, breaking the European monopoly on modern culture and transforming it into something that was a product of diverse groups. Only then can we have a culture that people from different backgrounds can say they have a heritage and belonging in. But in order to do that we would need white people to adopt elements of non traditionally European culture.

Second, this is a complete deflection from the main issue, white privilege. Sure, cultural appropriation may feel worse, but that is the symptom, not the disease. The more time you spend treating the symptom, you are ignoring the disease (and meanwhile angering people by appearing oversensitive or going after matters that seem trivial). It reminds me of the whole controversy over Matt Damon "whitewashing" the movie Great Wall. The real complaint is that there are not enough Asian actors in Hollywood. The discrimination against Asian actors is much more visible in cases of "whitewashing", so those cases generate a lot of outrage. But in reality, the activists would not care nearly so much if an Asian actor was cast as, say, James Bond.

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Again, I've never seen an example of a white woman wearing dreadlocks who somehow passes the test of "respect." Hence, functionally it's the same as a blanket condemnation.

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Yes, I was talking about someone who looks black, and is poor, or started out life as poor.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

My thoughts is that as black women's natural hair is unfairly stigmatised by Eurocentric dress codes, one would think it would be helpful for the cause to have Afro-style hairstyles adopted by other races; thereby forcing employers hands (like how the gluten-free trend helped the genuinely gluten intolerant by increasing the range of gluten-free products)? I can appreciate why many blacks may roll their eyes at the racial equivalent of slumming it; but at the end of the day I find it hard to get really riled up about the issue - and  worse it becomes a self-defeating tool, in that it trivialises the rest of the sj agenda by its oddness.

There is a very disturbingly ethnonationliast undercurrent to a lot of this debate, in both its proponents and its opponents. Sad how the elite plays us off each other so easily.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I voted "insanely stupid," but I should note that I did not read the article, nor do I know what it's about. I just think everything is terrible, and I wanted to save time.

I did read the article and I now also think everything is terrible.