Species Bill of 2005

[Emsworth]

Species Act of 2005

1. Endangered/Threatened Species
   a. Atlasia hereby recognizes the Endangered/Threatened Species List of animals and plants.
   b. Any individual wanting to bring an endangered or threatened species into Atlasia shall have to purchase a license allowing them to own said species plus an additional fee of 100,000 dollars for each animal brought in. In addition each individual must have the space they plan to hold said species inspected and approved by a local zoological society.
   c. Any zoo or zoological society may freely bring endangered or threatened species into the US if they haven’t been cited for animal rights as long as they notify the government of Atlasia.
   d. If any endangered or threatened species is proved to have been knowingly killed in a court of law said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.
2. Invasive Species
   a. Atlasia hereby recognizes invasive species as a problem to the nation’s environment.
   b. An invasive species shall be known as any non-native plant or animal that disrupts or destroys the natural state of the environment.
   c. Only zoos or zoological societies shall be allowed to import invasive species into the US.
   d. Any private company or individual found in a court of law to have knowingly brought in an invasive species shall be fined 2 million dollars and serve 30 years in prison for the first offense. If a second offense occurs the offender fine shall double to 4 million and spend life in prison.
3. Species Tracker
   a. Atlasia’s Fish and Wildlife Service shall be required to create a computer system to track the import and export of endangered, threatened and invasive species into and out of Atlasia.  In addition this system is required to keep on file the information of any previous offender.
   b. Any endangered, threatened or invasive species import or export must be reported the Atlasia’s Fish and Wildlife Service.
   c. Any individual, company, zoo or zoological society that currently has endangered, threatened or invasive species has two years to report all of said species to Atlasia’s Fish and Wildlife Service to be logged in the computer system.

Sponsor: Sen. MasterJedi

[Sam Spade]

   d. If any endangered or threatened species said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.

What does this mean?

[True Democrat]

   d. If any endangered or threatened species said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.

What does this mean?

And don't you think life in prison is a little much.  I mean, I'm all for protecting the environment, but sending people to prison forever is outrageous.

[Ebowed]

I agree with Senator True Democrat, life in prison for four offenses relating to endangered animals is outrageous, as is the $500k fine for the first offense.  Kill one plant from a species that's endangered and pay half a million?  That's overkill (pun intended).

[Gabu]

I agree with Senator True Democrat, life in prison for four offenses relating to endangered animals is outrageous, as is the $500k fine for the first offense.  Kill one plant from a species that's endangered and pay half a million?  That's overkill (pun intended).

Personally, I think that it's a good idea, but it could use refinement... for example, we should have to make it required to prove that the person knew that it was endangered and still killed it, as well as tweaking the punishment to be a little bit more reasonable.

[Sam Spade]

   d. If any endangered or threatened species said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.

What does this mean?

And don't you think life in prison is a little much.  I mean, I'm all for protecting the environment, but sending people to prison forever is outrageous.

I was more concerned about what this phrase means...

"If any endangered or threatened species said offender"

...as it lacks a relevant verb in order to make sense.

But your point is valid as well. 

[Gabu]

   d. If any endangered or threatened species said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.

What does this mean?

And don't you think life in prison is a little much.  I mean, I'm all for protecting the environment, but sending people to prison forever is outrageous.

I was more concerned about what this phrase means...

"If any endangered or threatened species said offender"

...as it lacks a relevant verb in order to make sense.

But your point is valid as well. 

I have a feeling that what was meant is this:

"If a person shall kill a member of any endangered or threatened species..."

[Sam Spade]

   d. If any endangered or threatened species said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.

What does this mean?

And don't you think life in prison is a little much.  I mean, I'm all for protecting the environment, but sending people to prison forever is outrageous.

I was more concerned about what this phrase means...

"If any endangered or threatened species said offender"

...as it lacks a relevant verb in order to make sense.

But your point is valid as well. 

I have a feeling that what was meant is this:

"If a person shall kill a member of any endangered or threatened species..."

That would make more sense.

And it's absolutely ridiculous, by the way.

[MasterJedi]

I'd like to introduce these two amendments.

d. If any endangered or threatened species is proved to have been knowingly killed in a court of law said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.

d. Any private company or individual found in a court of law to have knowingly brought in an invasive species shall be fined 2 million dollars and serve 30 years in prison for the first offense. If a second offense occurs the offender fine shall double to 4 million and spend life in prison.

[Emsworth]

I'd like to introduce these two amendments.

d. If any endangered or threatened species is proved to have been knowingly killed in a court of law said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.

d. Any private company or individual found in a court of law to have knowingly brought in an invasive species shall be fined 2 million dollars and serve 30 years in prison for the first offense. If a second offense occurs the offender fine shall double to 4 million and spend life in prison.

As far as I can tell, these are only grammatical changes, not substantive changes. Is a vote necessary?

[MasterJedi]

I changed the grammatical errors and then added "proved in a court of law" if you don't feel that deserves a vote just add it but if it does we'll vote.

I also talked to Gabu about the fines and he said he might try to change some things. I told him if they were good I might vote for them. But I put life in prison because, well if you do it four times you're probably not going to stop. For the invasive species one it was the second offense because they can really destroy the environment and hurt people. Fire ants, killer bees and this species of termite in New Orleons that's destroying all the old wooden buildings. (I can't remembe where they're from but they build huge nests and they travel out underground in tunnels from building to building.

[Emsworth]

I changed the grammatical errors and then added "proved in a court of law" if you don't feel that deserves a vote just add it but if it does we'll vote.

Then, unless any Senator objects, I am treating this only as a grammatical change, without need for a vote.

[Colin]

I have to say that upon reading this bill I am against it. The penalties are very high for such offenses and are overkill. While I can see that Senator MasterJedi is just trying to save the animals he is doing it in a way that punishes people who go against this bill too strictly.

Another problem is with so called "invasive species". Under this act it would be illegal for a seller to import a Christmas tree from Canada or Scandinavia or import seeds for his tree farm. It would be impossible for nurseries to import seeds of several popular plants. Australian Pines, which are a very common plant used in landscaping, would be highly regulated as would certain types of Roses and Hyacinths and these are just the plants that are on there now. Their is no end to what plants could be put on the list.

For these reasons I oppose this bill.

[Sam Spade]

I changed the grammatical errors and then added "proved in a court of law" if you don't feel that deserves a vote just add it but if it does we'll vote.

Then, unless any Senator objects, I am treating this only as a grammatical change, without need for a vote.

No objection here.

I think the penalties (especially prison-wise) are ridiculous and second Colin's concerns as to the actual impact of the bill.

[True Democrat]

I would like to propose an amendment:

Section 2, Clauses D (and I assume the second one is E) is changed from:

I'd like to introduce these two amendments.

d. If any endangered or threatened species is proved to have been knowingly killed in a court of law said offender shall be fined 500,000 on the first offense, 1 million and 5 years in prison for the second offense and 2 million and 30 years in prison for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense life in prison shall be enforced.

d. Any private company or individual found in a court of law to have knowingly brought in an invasive species shall be fined 2 million dollars and serve 30 years in prison for the first offense. If a second offense occurs the offender fine shall double to 4 million and spend life in prison.

to:

d. If any endangered or threatened species is proved to have been knowingly killed in a court of law said offender shall be fined $1,000 on the first offense, $5,000 and 100 hours of community service relating to conservation of wildlife for the second offense and $15,000 and 500 hours of community service relating to conservation of wildlife for the third offense. If the offender commits a fourth offense a fine of $25,000 and 1000 hours of community service relating to conservation of wildlife.  For all offenses after the fourt offense, the fine shall increase by $10,000 and the community service by 500 hours for each offense.

e. If any endangered or threatened species is proved to have been knowingly killed by a private or public company in a court of law said company shall be fined 0.001% of the company's total revenue for the first offense for the most recent fiscal year. If a second offense occurs the company shall be fined 0.01% of the company's total revenue for the most recent fiscal year.  For each said offense after the second offense, the fine shall be multiplied by 10.

I'm not sure if the fines are too high in part E.  Just tell me if they are, and I can easily change them.

[Emsworth]

I'm not sure if the fines are too high in part E.  Just tell me if they are, and I can easily change them.

Hmm, there might be another problem. If the company has a negative income (i.e., loses money), then it would not be liable to fine at all.

[True Democrat]

I'm not sure if the fines are too high in part E.  Just tell me if they are, and I can easily change them.

Hmm, there might be another problem. If the company has a negative income (i.e., loses money), then it would not be liable to fine at all.

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that.  But on the other hand, companies cannot have negative income.  They can have negative profit, but not negative income (maybe I should have used revenue).  I didn't want to use a fine like $500,000 because that could be really devastating for a small company and could be nothing for a large company.

[Emsworth]

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that.  But on the other hand, companies cannot have negative income.  They can have negative profit, but not negative income (maybe I should have used revenue).

Yes, I though that income would be the same as profit. But in any event, revenue is more clear. 

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That's true. Perhaps we can give the judge some discretion, as in "a fine of not more than $500,000." The judge could then assess the financial situation of the company and decide the specific amount.

[True Democrat]

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that.  But on the other hand, companies cannot have negative income.  They can have negative profit, but not negative income (maybe I should have used revenue).

Yes, I though that income would be the same as profit. But in any event, revenue is more clear. 

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That's true. Perhaps we can give the judge some discretion, as in "a fine of not more than $500,000." The judge could then assess the financial situation of the company and decide the specific amount.

I don't know.  The judge could be particularly harsh or soft on conservation.  I think the percentage of revenue works better.

[Emsworth]

I don't know.  The judge could be particularly harsh or soft on conservation.  I think the percentage of revenue works better.

That's perfectly fine.

As to the bill, I have a question to the sponsor, Senator MasterJedi, or to any other Senator who wants to answer. Are there (as far as you know) any current laws on protecting endangered species? If so, why do they need to be changed?

[MasterJedi]

First I'd like to say that I support True Ind. amendments.

Second is to Colin, there is no one complete invasive species list. Most of the plants that are brought into the US now aren't invasive. Scandinavian and Australian pines aren't invasive. They wouldn't take over an entire forest like say that mustard plant would. No invasive species are really used for landscaping in most common areas. If you still don't agree how would you think it should be worded to fit your ideas?

And third would be to Emsworth. Right now anybody can really get certain types of endangered species (Tigers, Lions etc) with a liscence. Now it would be harder for normal people to get them and they would be tracked. The government would know where these animals and plants are incase there's some kind of emergency or disaster.

[Emsworth]

And third would be to Emsworth. Right now anybody can really get certain types of endangered species (Tigers, Lions etc) with a liscence. Now it would be harder for normal people to get them and they would be tracked. The government would know where these animals and plants are incase there's some kind of emergency or disaster.

Alright, in that case, the bill seems to be sensible.

[Colin]

Second is to Colin, there is no one complete invasive species list. Most of the plants that are brought into the US now aren't invasive. Scandinavian and Australian pines aren't invasive. They wouldn't take over an entire forest like say that mustard plant would. No invasive species are really used for landscaping in most common areas. If you still don't agree how would you think it should be worded to fit your ideas?

Actually there is an invasive species list put out by the EPA. It can be found here. This is part of an invasive species site produced by the Federal Government in cooperation with state governments. A second copy of this list can be found here. Hyacinths, certain types of roses, Australian Pines, honeysuckles, and St. Johnswart, which is used in many herbal suplements to, IIRC, help memory and energy levels. All of these are invasive species according to both lists, one of which is produced on a government website.

[MHS2002]

As it stands right now, I am against the bill, which I feel has good intentions but has penalties that don't necessarily fit the crime.

[True Democrat]

As it stands right now, I am against the bill, which I feel has good intentions but has penalties that don't necessarily fit the crime.

I rewrote the penalties.  Check my amendment.