Should the French Monarchy be Restored?
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  Should the French Monarchy be Restored?
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Question: ?
#1
No
 
#2
Yes, and it should be a Constitutional Monarchy
 
#3
Yes, and it should be an Absolute Monarchy
 
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Total Voters: 94

Author Topic: Should the French Monarchy be Restored?  (Read 4588 times)
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shua
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2017, 02:49:25 PM »


I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?
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Goldwater
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« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2017, 04:28:14 PM »


I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?

Enemy of my enemy, lesser of two evils, etc.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2017, 05:08:49 PM »


I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?

Enemy of my enemy, lesser of two evils, etc.

The 1st French Republic was a repressive totalitarian regime that could send you to the guillotine for sneezing like a Royalist. The 2nd French Republic was a trojan horse for the resumption of the Bonapartist regime, which was a basically an elective dictatorship. The Third French Republic was both at once an unstable model to carry France through the World Wars and secondly was one of the most repressive colonial regimes.

Let us not act like 19th century French Republic's are so noble construction that a respecting American is obligated by virtue of being American to support.
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SNJ1985
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2017, 07:20:40 PM »

Sure. The French Revolution was a mistake.
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maga2020
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« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2017, 06:35:31 PM »

Sure. The French Revolution was a mistake.
The French Republic is one of the most failed political experiments in history, in Europe, only Italy is worse.

You see the difference between the both, we just wanted to get rid of taxation without representation while the far-left french revolution went full ISIS on the monarchy.
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GlobeSoc
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« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2017, 07:02:04 PM »

Sure. The French Revolution was a mistake.
The French Republic is one of the most failed political experiments in history, in Europe, only Italy is worse.

You see the difference between the bothtwo, we just wanted to get rid of taxation without representation while the far-left french revolution went full ISIS on the monarchy.

The Ancien Regime was a rigid mess.
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« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2017, 07:32:08 PM »

Can I be the King of France?  I'm sure I could forge some documents claiming I was related to Louis XVI.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2017, 08:13:41 PM »


I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?

Enemy of my enemy, lesser of two evils, etc.

The 1st French Republic was a repressive totalitarian regime that could send you to the guillotine for sneezing like a Royalist. The 2nd French Republic was a trojan horse for the resumption of the Bonapartist regime, which was a basically an elective dictatorship. The Third French Republic was both at once an unstable model to carry France through the World Wars and secondly was one of the most repressive colonial regimes.

Let us not act like 19th century French Republic's are so noble construction that a respecting American is obligated by virtue of being American to support.

Napoleonic Emperors were exceedingly popular, and carried more popular support than any democratic government ever has to my knowledge. Napoleon I, at least, was a staunch supporter of liberty and human rights. He and James Madison could have been great allies, if not for Washingtonian isolationism.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2017, 10:27:24 PM »


I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?

Enemy of my enemy, lesser of two evils, etc.

The 1st French Republic was a repressive totalitarian regime that could send you to the guillotine for sneezing like a Royalist. The 2nd French Republic was a trojan horse for the resumption of the Bonapartist regime, which was a basically an elective dictatorship. The Third French Republic was both at once an unstable model to carry France through the World Wars and secondly was one of the most repressive colonial regimes.

Let us not act like 19th century French Republic's are so noble construction that a respecting American is obligated by virtue of being American to support.

Napoleonic Emperors were exceedingly popular, and carried more popular support than any democratic government ever has to my knowledge. Napoleon I, at least, was a staunch supporter of liberty and human rights. He and James Madison could have been great allies, if not for Washingtonian isolationism.

"... this and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs."

I used to be a fan of Napoleon and Louis Napoleon. But with time, I came to regard them as dictators. Democracy and liberty are at odds with the notion that you can elect your way into an authoritarian dictatorship, whatever Napoleon's personal views might have been.

Napoleon was also the victim of his own ego and this led to both his downfall and the restoration of the bourbon monarchy.

Anymore I consider Napoleon a parallel for Oliver Cromwell. Both were cut their teeth in wars to preserve a non-monarchical government, both came to power and even had to repress an unruly parliamentary body to do so. Both were very repressive in power and both came to take on powers/titles that led one to wonder whether or not they had backslid to the old regime, splitting the revolutionary movements. Both were followed by Monarchical restorations, beginning first with someone who tried to moderate the extremes and keep things from descending back into chaos (Charles II-Louis XVIII), then with someone who reigned for a few years but were toppled because they weren't as tempered in their actions (James II-Charles X).
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2017, 10:32:06 PM »

Can I be the King of France?  I'm sure I could forge some documents claiming I was related to Louis XVI.

I wonder if there are any illegitimate descendents of Louis XV, I mean he was after all, "one horny fellow" as Crazy Kal put it.

All existing legitimate Capetians are descended from Louis XIII, the Carlists from Louis XIV and the Orleanists from his brother, who was also one horny fellow and a rather bisexual one at that.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2017, 11:51:32 PM »

Do you really intend to suggest that a constitutional monarchy with a great deal of individual liberty is worse than authoritarian and even semi-authoritarian democracies?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2017, 03:39:23 AM »

Do you really intend to suggest that a constitutional monarchy with a great deal of individual liberty is worse than authoritarian and even semi-authoritarian democracies?

The irony here is that I thought I made quite clear I regard the Napoleonic regimes as the latter far more than the former. That doesn't even get into the kind of foreign policy adventurism that eventually saw France defeated and wrecked as a country, twice.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2017, 01:04:11 PM »

Do you really intend to suggest that a constitutional monarchy with a great deal of individual liberty is worse than authoritarian and even semi-authoritarian democracies?

The irony here is that I thought I made quite clear I regard the Napoleonic regimes as the latter far more than the former. That doesn't even get into the kind of foreign policy adventurism that eventually saw France defeated and wrecked as a country, twice.

I understand. I would have liked to see Napoleon establish a legislature, as well, but it just wasn't realistic considering all of Europe hated him because of how much liberty he allowed his people. Napoleon III is decidedly less defensible.

Personally, as a strong supporter of Madisonianism, it's hard for me to understand how little people appreciate Napoleon I. On every single issue of individual liberty, his regime was better than that of his enemies. Besides the ones in America at the time, he even was the first post-Roman leader to allow homosexuality to such an extent as he did.
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shua
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« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2017, 02:16:56 PM »


I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?

Enemy of my enemy, lesser of two evils, etc.

?
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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2017, 05:11:22 PM »


I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?

Enemy of my enemy, lesser of two evils, etc.

?

What's to question?
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2017, 05:24:16 PM »

No. Historically, there have been occasions when the advocates of monarchy have been on the "right side" in comparison to their republican antagonists; this does not change the fact that, as a matter or principle, hereditary rule - whether constitutional or absolute - is inimical to the idea that "all [people] are created equal" and entirely illegitimate as a rational foundation for government.

The French Revolution was a disaster, and France would no doubt have been better off under a constitutional monarchy than under the Committee of Public Safety; today, however, France has a stable republican constitution that manages both to uphold the ideals of democratic equality and avoid guillotining innocent people. Why on earth would we exchange that for a system founded on the premise that some individuals, by virtue of being born to fancy parents, have a God-given right to rule a nation?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2017, 09:40:54 PM »

No. Historically, there have been occasions when the advocates of monarchy have been on the "right side" in comparison to their republican antagonists; this does not change the fact that, as a matter or principle, hereditary rule - whether constitutional or absolute - is inimical to the idea that "all [people] are created equal" and entirely illegitimate as a rational foundation for government.

The French Revolution was a disaster, and France would no doubt have been better off under a constitutional monarchy than under the Committee of Public Safety; today, however, France has a stable republican constitution that manages both to uphold the ideals of democratic equality and avoid guillotining innocent people. Why on earth would we exchange that for a system founded on the premise that some individuals, by virtue of being born to fancy parents, have a God-given right to rule a nation?

Well I wouldn't, but that isn't the point. Had such a situation developed as a stable constitutional monarchy, like say a July Monarchy that survived, progressed and democratized, then today France might have a situation that resembles Britain today. But I think much of this conversation revolves around relative comparisons of a past state to another past state, as opposed to today. In other words, dis thread been hijacked. Tongue

My philosophy makes me a strong believer in the republican institutions in America. At the same time I don't think we should export or monopolize just how a democracy should be structured. Though not the case in France, many of these "Republics" are parliamentary democracies with a President instead of a King, some of which are elected by the legislative branch even. I can see some argument to having a non-partisan head of state, that serves to connect the country to tradition and at the same time encourages reason, unity and compromise.

If a country opts for that route and it works, I don't think it is in America's interest to create chaos where it does not exist in the name of some purist interpretation of Jeffersonian Democracy. I think that was a mistake that we made in the past and it ended up causing more repression, turmoil and death then any Constitutional Monarch offending your strict sensibilities. Tongue Ironically, one example where that did not happen was under President Truman, the US did not force Hirohito to abdicate.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2017, 09:50:10 PM »

No. Historically, there have been occasions when the advocates of monarchy have been on the "right side" in comparison to their republican antagonists; this does not change the fact that, as a matter or principle, hereditary rule - whether constitutional or absolute - is inimical to the idea that "all [people] are created equal" and entirely illegitimate as a rational foundation for government.

The French Revolution was a disaster, and France would no doubt have been better off under a constitutional monarchy than under the Committee of Public Safety; today, however, France has a stable republican constitution that manages both to uphold the ideals of democratic equality and avoid guillotining innocent people. Why on earth would we exchange that for a system founded on the premise that some individuals, by virtue of being born to fancy parents, have a God-given right to rule a nation?

Well I wouldn't, but that isn't the point. Had such a situation developed as a stable constitutional monarchy, like say a July Monarchy that survived, progressed and democratized, then today France might have a situation that resembles Britain today. But I think much of this conversation revolves around relative comparisons of a past state to another past state, as opposed to today. In other words, dis thread been hijacked. Tongue

My philosophy makes me a strong believer in the republican institutions in America. At the same time I don't think we should export or monopolize just how a democracy should be structured. Though not the case in France, many of these "Republics" are parliamentary democracies with a President instead of a King, some of which are elected by the legislative branch even. I can see some argument to having a non-partisan head of state, that serves to connect the country to tradition and at the same time encourages reason, unity and compromise.

If a country opts for that route and it works, I don't think it is in America's interest to create chaos where it does not exist in the name of some purist interpretation of Jeffersonian Democracy. I think that was a mistake that we made in the past and it ended up causing more repression, turmoil and death then any Constitutional Monarch offending your strict sensibilities. Tongue Ironically, one example where that did not happen was under President Truman, the US did not force Hirohito to abdicate.

If it didn't become like the British country, would you support a constitutional elective monarchy in France that usually elected a Bonaparte?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2017, 09:59:28 PM »

Do you really intend to suggest that a constitutional monarchy with a great deal of individual liberty is worse than authoritarian and even semi-authoritarian democracies?

The irony here is that I thought I made quite clear I regard the Napoleonic regimes as the latter far more than the former. That doesn't even get into the kind of foreign policy adventurism that eventually saw France defeated and wrecked as a country, twice.

I understand. I would have liked to see Napoleon establish a legislature, as well, but it just wasn't realistic considering all of Europe hated him because of how much liberty he allowed his people. Napoleon III is decidedly less defensible.

Personally, as a strong supporter of Madisonianism, it's hard for me to understand how little people appreciate Napoleon I. On every single issue of individual liberty, his regime was better than that of his enemies. Besides the ones in America at the time, he even was the first post-Roman leader to allow homosexuality to such an extent as he did.

Because today we do not approve of caudillos or elected dictators. At the time, dictator and even Emperor, was a less offensive term and King was far more offensive. In the modern day, when we think of a King/Queen, we think of George VI and Elizabeth II, dignified people devoted to their countries in times of war and crisis. While a dictator evokes images of Swastikas and red stars, and Emperor evokes images of Pearl Harbor or Maximilian in Mexico (Another product of Nappy III). We also see the world through Anglophile eyes, hence the support for Single Payer on the left, to the exclusion of other universal healthcare options. This is further ingrained from having fought two world wars allied with the British and the concept of Britain as an island standing down a continental hegemon (who also happened to invade Russia while still at war with Britain), makes it hard not to compare Napoleon to Hitler.

He comes across as a usurping strong man, the kind that rides in on a white horse to save the day when the country is plunged into chaos and turmoil, in hopes that he will provide stability at the expense of freedom and liberty, and typically ends up providing none of those things.

You say you "wish he had a legislature", yet laud his record on liberty and freedom. The problem is that liberty is worthless unless people control the legislative branch and that legislative branch has power, because the Emperor can take it away at a whim and there is no limit or check on his power. This is the crux of Madisonianism and it was fairly absent in the Napoleonic regimes. Bonapartism is great at expanding suffrage, for powerless legislatures (Napoleon III) or none at all (Plebiscites). Liberty only exists in state of stability and balanced institutions, Napoleon provided neither.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2017, 10:06:16 PM »

There are men made for governance, for being good political leaders, and there are men made for adventures, for being saviors.

I can almost guarantee you that, if he had defeated his enemies, Napoleon would have strengthened the legislature, if only to give himself something to do. In the meantime, do you care to respond to my prior hypothetical question?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2017, 10:22:50 PM »

There are men made for governance, for being good political leaders, and there are men made for adventures, for being saviors.

I can almost guarantee you that, if he had defeated his enemies, Napoleon would have strengthened the legislature, if only to give himself something to do. In the meantime, do you care to respond to my prior hypothetical question?

What hypothetical question?
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« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2017, 11:03:41 AM »

Well, Macron is trying to make his wife a Queen, so it's not out of the question.
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« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2017, 11:19:21 AM »

Well, Macron is trying to make his wife a Queen, so it's not out of the question.

Fortunately he won't be able to have any children!
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« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2017, 12:44:16 PM »

Absolutely not. Establishing a Constitutional Monarchy, no matter how weak, would be a step backwards for France without any clear reason. The United Kingdom has a very clear reason for maintaining their royal family and that's (mostly America) tourist dollars. There is no such benefit for France because of a language barrier and historical precedent.
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shua
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« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2017, 01:09:42 AM »


I forget, was it the 1st or 2nd French Republic that enabled the American colonies to win their war of independence ?

Enemy of my enemy, lesser of two evils, etc.

?

What's to question?

relevance.
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