Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Interesting article

I think at some point the Democratic leadership needs to tell the loony left to shut up. Publically.

They have. That's why we're in this mess.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

They have.

When exactly? I don't recall (say) Boxer being told to shut up recently... and I don't see any strong criticisms of far left lobby groups...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Please put down you're crackpipe

The DLC is always criticizing some Democrat. You're an idiot if you think that massively condemning anyone you call loony left, and moving to the right is going to help the Democratic party. Since when has the Republican party condemned their many extremists or moved to the left? You probably just want pro-war anti-abortionists to take over the Democratic party, even though the majority of Americans are anti-war and pro-choice.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

When exactly? I don't recall (say) Boxer being told to shut up recently... and I don't see any strong criticisms of far left lobby groups...

What is your problem with Boxer? How is she loony?

The only DLC democrat I would consider supporting in 2008 is Mark Warner. The DLC has few true principles, they usually just try to chase the ever right-moving center. They are the corporate wing of the Democratic party, and that doesn't cut it.

No kidding. The last thing we need to do is run some pro-war, pro-bankruptcy bill, anti-choice "Democrat" who speaks and acts like a Republican. If the voters want a Republican, they'll just vote Republican, instead of Republican-lite.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Well part of the problem is that many on the far left, i.e. jfern, are totally in dreamland when it comes to surveying the political landscape.

So obviously the course of action they recommend is going to be wrong-- even a rational decision-maker needs accurate information to make that decision.

Most basically, they believe voters are much more liberal than they really are. Until they enter the real world, the bad decisions will continue.

The polls agree with me. Bush has a 61% disapproval rating on the Iraq war.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Well part of the problem is that many on the far left, i.e. jfern, are totally in dreamland when it comes to surveying the political landscape.

I couldn't have put it better myself.  The DLC is pragmatic, and we're trying to help.  If you don't want to listen to us, you can keep losing elections in the South and the Heartland.

When does the DLC help to win elections? Hackett wasn't DLC and almost won an ultra-conservative district. The DLC tried to claim Newsome as a member. They are a joke.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Good article, thanks for posting it.  It's something that both of the two parties need to pay close attention to if they want to grow their bases.

As far as the Democrats themselves go, I stated before the election that the DNC was facing a major split within their own party.  You have the hard-core left faction and the moderate/populist faction at odds with each other.  Why the DNC chose to turn away from the progress Clinton made with moving the party to the middle, I don't know, but that is where a large segment of their base is still currently residing, and the Republicans are taking advantage of that on the local levels. 

The Republicans, on the other hand, need to ensure they don't get too full of themselves (like the Democrats did in the past) and take their supporters for granted.  That doesn't mean they have to give them every perk in the book, but they do need to listen to what their more fiscally conservative supporters are saying.

1. Fiscal conservatives don't vote Republican today
2. Are you somehow arguing that the far-right Republican party should spend more time listening to their far-right base, while the moderate Democratic party should ignore their base?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

[I couldn't have put it better myself.  The DLC is pragmatic, and we're trying to help.

The DLC needs more action, and less talk. Right now they're doing nothing besides blowing hot air and criticizing other Democrats.

Yep. The New Democratic Network is a much better organization. Democrats have to stand for something. The DLC doesn't seem to do that.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The DLC is always criticizing some Democrat.

Some examples would be nice. But I don't recall them telling Boxer to shut up. I don't recall the various ultra-liberal lobby groups being told where to **** off either.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Generally speaking condemning extremists and moving into the mainstream is a good idea electorally

You must be logged in to read this quote.

They haven't had any need to. You need to have a good hard look at yourself and ask why.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Most Americans are not "pro-choice"; an overwhelming majority are moderates and favour restrictions of some kind but not an outright ban. Most Americans are apalled by groups like NARAL. Most Americans are not happy with the way things have been going in Iraq. But they don't share the position of the Anti War Left on Iraq either. To assume that they do is to make exactly the same mistake the Left made over Vietnam.

You seem to not understand how far right the Republicans are. 86% of Americans favor raising the minimum wage.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Scoonie has the right idea.

I'm not sure what exactly Al is suggesting.

jfern is out of touch.

All Republicans are even worse since their definition of "moving to the center" is simply becoming acceptable to the radicals like Robertson, Falwell and Moore.

How am I out of touch? All I was doing was pointing out that Al's ideas of having the Democratic party condemn anyone who isn't a conservative, and move to the right are just asking for the demise of the party.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Fiscal conservatives don't vote Republican today

Hilarious.

Ever noticed the national debt? Fiscal conservatives don't vote for a huge national debt.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

You are accusing Al of wanting to sell out the "working class?"  That is hilarious.

Al doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Fiscal conservatives don't vote Republican today

Hilarious.

Ever noticed the national debt? Fiscal conservatives don't vote for a huge national debt.

Let's review Kerry's talking points from 2004:
--Bush failed to fully fund NCLB
--Bush's Prescription Drug Coverage doesn't go far enough
--Bush doesn't give states and cities enough money for Homeland Security
--Bush isn't spending enough on our troops in Iraq
--We don't have enough troops, let's increase the ranks with incentives
--We need to give health coverage to every American

Let's review Kerry's 2004 spending cut proposals
--<File Not Found>

The Democrats won't attract fiscal conservatives until they stop presenting a huge laundry list of new spending every time they run for office.

The Democratic party isbetter at balancing the deficit. In fact, National Debt / GDP has decreased under every Democrat since WWII, and increased under every Republican Ford and later.

I wouldn't claim that the Democratic party is super fiscally conservative, but they certainly beat the Republicans. You want super fiscally conservative, you can vote Libertarian.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

You seem to not understand how far right the Republicans are.

The Republican Party is not the issue here

Yes, it is. They prove that you don't have to be spineless and move to the center to win.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

And? Did I say they weren't?
[/quote]
So do you want the Democratic party to join the 12% who oppose that?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Because she is an extremist?
[/quote]
Brilliant argument.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

When did I say that?
[/quote]
When you said that the Democratic party should abandon their base.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Maybe not from your perspective, but then you *are* very liberal. Think about some of the stuff she's said from the point of view of ordinary working class voters.
[/quote]
Huh? She's one of the most pro-worker Senators.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

True. But that's not the issue here. Most Americans do not see the religious right as in any way representing the national GOP... but a significant proportion, almost certainly a majority, do see far left liberals as somehow representing the national Democrats.
[/quote]
I doubt it's most, and in any case, these people are ing stupid. You don't care about the most liberal 86% of Americans, anyways.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Shouldn't be hard to work out; move into the mainstream, critise the loony left, sever ties with extremist groups, win elections
[/quote]
Umm, that last one doesn't go with the others. Voters don't vote for spineless wimps who stand for nothing and flip flop on every issue.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Who won Ohio?
[/quote]
How is this relevant? If the election was held today, Kerry would win. I see you offering no constructive advice, and instead are just mindlessly bashing the Democratic party.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

When did I say that?
[/quote]
You said that the Democratic party should abandon the left, dumbass.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I said move into the mainstream
[/quote]
They're already right of center on many issues. Do you want them to get more pro-war, more anti-worker, and so on? Change your avatar.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No... no... I don't think I said that...
[/quote]
That's exactly what you said.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

No, actually Kerry's favorability rating has dropped to 42%. And that's among adults.

Probably some people are pissed off at him for losing.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If Boxer is so wonderful why aren't Democrats clamoring for her to run for President?

Some are, but we do recognize that despite the fact that she has the record for votes in a non-Presidential election, the most liberal Senator might not be the most electable.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Boxer has a ton of 100% labor ratings.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0105103&type=category&category=Labor

She has the maximum liberal rating on most education ratings
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0105103&type=category&category=Labor

She has high ratings on environmental ratings, including 100% on the National Parks Conservation Association
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0105103&type=category&category=Environmental%2BIssues&go.x=12&go.y=2

Her health ratings are almots all 100%.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0105103&type=category&category=Health%2BIssues&go.x=3&go.y=15

She using has the maximum liberal rating on Housing and Property rights.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0105103&type=category&category=Housing%2Band%2BProperty%2BIssues&go.x=11&go.y=2

She has very high ratings from the pro-SS senior groups.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0105103&type=category&category=Senior%2Band%2BSocial%2BSecurity%2BIssues&go.x=1&go.y=8

She stands for ordinary working class people, unlike what the Democratic party would be like if they listened to you, Al.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

You still can't give me specific examples of how she's "loony" or "extremist". You're just repeating right-wing spin.

Every year she's been in the Senate she's got a 100% rating from NARAL. In her entire career she has supported gun owners 0% of the time.

Californians don't seem to care. Why should you care?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I suppose you're one of those fools who thinks that FL 2000 wasn't stolen?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Every politician has some quote like that. Who cares?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No she hasn't
[/quote]
Quit repeating the same lack of an argument over and over again.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Public sector unions in California endorse anyone with a "D" next to their name

[/quote]
Sure they tend not to endorse people like Arnold who call unions special intersts, but hey don't necessarily give the Democrats as good ratings as they give Boxer. These are national labor groups that rated her.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No she doesn't. She just blindly votes for the Democratic postion.
[/quote]
Dude, a 3 year old can argue better than you. Was challenging the Ohio vote the Democratic position? Burn.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Missing my point entirely...
[/quote]
What point?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Moving towards moderate positions on wedge issues would be a good start
[/quote]
Which wedge issues? Should we come out against Roe. vs Wade, even though 65% of Americans support it?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

NARAL comes to mind methinks
[/quote]

Yeah, they're in the most extreme 65% of America.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

She has 100% ratings from every liberal group out there, and you think this is the direction your party needs to go in?  Good.

Wasn't he trying to prove that Boxer is not an extremist?

I was trying to prove that Al was a moron when he said that she doesn't stand for the ordinary working class.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If Boxer is so wonderful why aren't Democrats clamoring for her to run for President?

Because she wouldn't win. But she'd be a great president.

She wouldn't win because she is extreme.

She ran significantly better than Kerry, and got the most votes anyone has ever gotten in a non Presidential election in US history.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

lol, Scoonie is such a riot. Jfern just posted like five links giving her 100% ratings from liberal groups, and he insists there's no evidence she's extreme.

There are working millionaires, and no, government catering to any specific group at the expense of freedom is wrong.

You probably think that the 86% of America who want to raise the minimum wage are extreme.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Yes, it is. They prove that you don't have to be spineless and move to the center to win.

The ONLY reason why the GOP has not had to move towards the centre is BECAUSE of the perception that the national Dems are run by out of touch far left liberal elitists

Ummm, maybe change that stupid perception then? It's as clear as daylight that the Republican party is run by far-right social darwinists.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You what?
[/quote]
You are calling for the Democratic party to abandon their base. So does that mean that they get more conservative on issues where they were already pretty conservative like minimum wage and universal health care?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Extremist=Loony. Yep, seems fair to me
[/quote]
Here in the reality based world, our arguments use evidence.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I've never suggested bringing back segregation or anything...
[/quote]
Well, gee, that's good to know, but I wasn't thinking of that issue anyways.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

*sigh*

Her extreme positions on so many issues worry working class voters
[/quote]
Worry them so much that she gets high ratings from pro-labor groups and just won re-election in a landslide?

Break down by income

Boxer won > 15k 70-26
Boxer won 15-30k 69-28
Boxer won 30k-50k 61-35
Boxer won 50k-75k 55-42
Boxer won 75k-100k 56-43
Boxer won 100k-150k 60-40
Boxer lost 150k-200k 49-50
Boxer lost > 200k 39-58

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Are you even talking about the same thing as me or...?
[/quote]

You seem to support abandoning a lot of the Democratic party's principles.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Bill "Bubba" Clinton was President from 1993 until 2001
[/quote]

Ever heard of charisma?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[/quote]
What?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The phrase was LOONY left not left...
[/quote]
Define loony left? WTF is the difference?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You what?
[/quote]
You seem to want the Democratic party to out-Republican the Republican party. That's not the way to go. Even Ronald Wilson Reagan Jr. agrees with me there.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

WHERE?
[/quote]

Where you bashed the left.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

lol, Scoonie is such a riot. Jfern just posted like five links giving her 100% ratings from liberal groups, and he insists there's no evidence she's extreme.

There are working millionaires, and no, government catering to any specific group at the expense of freedom is wrong.

You probably think that the 86% of America who want to raise the minimum wage are extreme.

No, I don't. In fact, I don't even mind minimum wage much. I think it's wrong, but so are most government programs. Raise it a bit and index for inflation. Anything over that can be handled on a state-by-state basis.

Did you suddenly become more moderate?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

She wouldn't win because she is extreme.

She wouldn't win because Republicans have already demonized her and weak-knee'd Democrats like you buy into it and repeat the spin.

And again, you have no specific information to back up your claim of her being extreme. You just repeat right-wing spin over and over again.

Oh yeah, I'm a weak-kneed Democrat.  I'm a realist.  You're the one that's living a leftist fantasy.  This is not right-wing spin.  It's true that she is significantly farther to the left than most Americans.  Maybe you should pay a visit to the South or the MidWest instead of just believing stereotypes about it.  Seriously, the entire US is not like the northeast and California.  Just keep thinking that and we'll lose elections for the next 30 years too. 

We're not claiming that Boxer would be the most electable Presidential candidate. However, she has done quite well in CA. Al seems hopelessly confused about her, calling her both a far-left extremist and saying that she doesn't stand up for ordinary working class. Both of those are wrong.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

1. Why are the needs of the CA working class so incredibly different from those elsewhere? If anything, they're greater in CA, due to a higher cost of living.
2. If he's so extreme right-wing then how did he get elected CA secretary of state in 1994 and 1998? He's really  to the left of Bush.



Explain what the difference between the left and loony left is, you reality-challenged fool. [/quote][/quote]

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

lol, Scoonie is such a riot. Jfern just posted like five links giving her 100% ratings from liberal groups, and he insists there's no evidence she's extreme.

Oh yeah, 100% ratings from pro-labor, pro-education, pro-environment, pro-property rights, pro-Social Security, and pro-health care groups make her an extremist!! That actually makes her an exemplary Senator.

What kind of sick bast*rd do you have to be to oppose those issues?

"Pro" is vague. I think you mean she's pro-socialism, anti- school choice, pro- housing subsidies, against individual liberty, and pro-Hillarycare.

PRO-HILLARYCARE? OH NOES!!!!!