Culture Gap Could Keep Democrats From Gaining Seats in 2006

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Interesting article

I think at some point the Democratic leadership needs to tell the loony left to shut up. Publically.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

They have.

When exactly? I don't recall (say) Boxer being told to shut up recently... and I don't see any strong criticisms of far left lobby groups...

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Please put down you're crackpipe

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The DLC is always criticizing some Democrat.

Some examples would be nice. But I don't recall them telling Boxer to shut up. I don't recall the various ultra-liberal lobby groups being told where to **** off either.

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Generally speaking condemning extremists and moving into the mainstream is a good idea electorally

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They haven't had any need to. You need to have a good hard look at yourself and ask why.

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Most Americans are not "pro-choice"; an overwhelming majority are moderates and favour restrictions of some kind but not an outright ban. Most Americans are apalled by groups like NARAL. Most Americans are not happy with the way things have been going in Iraq. But they don't share the position of the Anti War Left on Iraq either. To assume that they do is to make exactly the same mistake the Left made over Vietnam.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You seem to not understand how far right the Republicans are.

The Republican Party is not the issue here

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And? Did I say they weren't?

You still can't tell me how Barbara Boxer is "loony".

Because she is an extremist?

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When did I say that?

about what? She just votes liberal, doesn't make Santorum-esque comments.

Maybe not from your perspective, but then you *are* very liberal. Think about some of the stuff she's said from the point of view of ordinary working class voters.

Most Americans do not agree with the religious right agenda and are appalled by groups like the Christian Coalition too.

True. But that's not the issue here. Most Americans do not see the religious right as in any way representing the national GOP... but a significant proportion, almost certainly a majority, do see far left liberals as somehow representing the national Democrats.

I'm not sure what exactly Al is suggesting.

Shouldn't be hard to work out; move into the mainstream, critise the loony left, sever ties with extremist groups, win elections

You are accusing Al of wanting to sell out the "working class?"  That is hilarious.

How am I out of touch?

Who won Ohio?

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When did I say that?

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I said move into the mainstream

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Al doesn't seem to be the sharpest tool in the shed.

I think I'll take that as a compliment...

If Al wants us to become more like Republicans

No... no... I don't think I said that...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You still can't give me specific examples of how she's "loony" or "extremist". You're just repeating right-wing spin.

Every year she's been in the Senate she's got a 100% rating from NARAL. In her entire career she has supported gun owners 0% of the time.

And what about her bizarre grandstanding about the Ohio EV's?

Genuine Boxer quote:

"Those who survived the San Francisco earthquake said, 'Thank God, I'm still alive.' But, of course, those who died, their lives will never be the same again."

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No she hasn't

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Public sector unions in California endorse anyone with a "D" next to their name

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No she doesn't. She just blindly votes for the Democratic postion.

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Missing my point entirely...

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Moving towards moderate positions on wedge issues would be a good start

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NARAL comes to mind methinks

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes, it is. They prove that you don't have to be spineless and move to the center to win.

The ONLY reason why the GOP has not had to move towards the centre is BECAUSE of the perception that the national Dems are run by out of touch far left liberal elitists

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You what?

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Extremist=Loony. Yep, seems fair to me

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I've never suggested bringing back segregation or anything...

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*sigh*

Her extreme positions on so many issues worry working class voters

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Are you even talking about the same thing as me or...?

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Bill "Bubba" Clinton was President from 1993 until 2001

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The phrase was LOONY left not left...

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You what?

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WHERE?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Ummm, maybe change that stupid perception then? It's as clear as daylight that the Republican party is run by far-right social darwinists.

Sigh...

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No I am not

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No. The Democrats should move into the mainstream; on some issues that does actually mean moving to the left oddly enough.

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Here in the real reality based word, we have eyes so we can see that said evidence has been posted a couple of paragraphs up
 

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What were you thinking of?

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Since when was abortion on demand a key principle of the Democratic party?

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So? He was still a flip-flopper. He was still a moderate. He wasn't an extremist.

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Extreme left. Insane left. You.

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Have you actually read anything I've written or are you arguing with the evil GOP bogeyman in your head?

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So bashing the loony left, the LOONY left, is the same as... no I don't think I'll bother...[/quote][/quote]

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Californians don't seem to care.

Californians are not representative of America as a whole

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Er... I was just pointing out why she's an extremist...

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Look... BLACK HELICOPTERS!!!!!!

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I think I've pointed out my arguement on this a couple of times...

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Any Democratic Senator that votes party line on certain issues will get 100% ratings from some Unions. Not impressive.

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I was refering to economic issues, something that was kinda implied I think.
And challenging the Ohio vote is the Insane Left position...

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*slaps forehead*

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You know I think that coming out against unrestricted Abotion is something that most Americans would approve of.

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NARAL does NOT represent 65% of America. NARAL want abortions on demand at any stage in the pregnancy. That is an extreme (and frankly quite sick) position. Most Americans do not share NARAL's views.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

1. Why are the needs of the CA working class so incredibly different from those elsewhere? If anything, they're greater in CA, due to a higher cost of living.

There's still a working class in California?

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California just loves it's nutters

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You need to ask? Loony Left=Extreme Left

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Neither is almost any other state

Not the point, not the point. Some crazy like Boxer winning in California isn't impressive, neither is a crazy like Cornyn winning in Texas

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There were irregularities yes, but not a massive evil conspiracy or anything...

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O.K then, opposite to the GOP line...

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Funny!

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Keep on dodging the hard things to answer...[/quote]

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And you accuse the left of being out of touch.

Sense of humour failure?

As a serious point, there isn't *much* of a working class in California, sure there's poor people but that's not the same at all...

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I think that it's perfectly fair to call someone who thinks that abortions are great an extremist

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Yeah, but what do *you* think an extremist is?[/quote][/quote]

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've never been to these places in California, but aren't places like Oakland and South Central LA filled to the gills with homeless people?

Yes. And it's a big problem. I don't think they can be classed as working class though.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Not the same at all? WTF do you mean by that?

Should be obvious... unless you're a Maxist or summet...

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Doesn't have much to do with whether someone is working class or not

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Ignoring? No. Avoiding misleading labels? Yes.

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I didn't say he was. He's much more of a nutter though.

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Explain that

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In theory. No difference in practice. But then you support abortion as a form of social darwinism so...

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See Blue Rectangle's post

---
Al

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Kerry won CA by only 10 points, and it used to be fairly Republican, most recently going Republican in 1988.

And?

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I've given a fair few reasons why she's an extremist. You got a memory like a Goldfish or summet?

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Without putting too fine a point on it, if I wanted to steal an election I wouldn't have let it go within MoE like FL was...

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Really? I Had No Idea At All Because I Am An Uninformed Idiot

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Am I? I rather like most of the rustbelt Senators

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No; it's a classic example of legislating from the bench, has caused untold political divisions, has at it's heart a disgusting principle and the public is largely ignorant about it.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The entire Central Valley is working-class.

Most is IIRC. Not checked the stats for that area as much as I'd have liked to really...
I don't supose I need to point out that Boxer did much worse in the Central Valley than along the coast do I?

Shhh. People don't really work in California.

Did I say that? No...

Not everyone there is a multi-millionaire with a vineyard.

And I never said that that was the case

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Al, I wasn't accusing you of anything.  I realized a fact of California life.  I know you didn't say that. 

Ah, sorry... I'm tired and irritable at the moment...

[Filuwaúrdjan]

We shouldn't ignore the South at all, we just shouldn't pander to them if it means going against our core values.

Well if the national Democrats had been bothered to campaign on the Democratic party's core values (as opposed to affluent liberal leftists core values...) it wouldn't be in the trouble it's in down in Dixie.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Time to tell the "moderates" to go  themselves, and run a liberal, so we can tap into that 61%.

Once again you're making exactly the same mistake the Anti War Left made over Vietnam

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't listen to pro-war hacks like you.

So instead of responding to my point ya just resort to mindless (and, as I've pointed out to you sooooooo many times, innacurate) insults. And you wonder why the national Democrats being associated with people like you is an electoral albatross?

I feel like explaining my point anyway; in the late '60's and early '70's most Americans wanted to end the war in Vietnam and strongly disapproved of the way it was handled. The Anti War Left (who had seized control of the national Democrats) decided that this meant they shared there position on Vietnam... something that could not have been more wrong. The Anti War Left was opposed to the war because they viewed it as immoral, as imperialist etc. They either thought that Ho Chi Minh was a hero or had a neutral opinion of him. They were almost all from comfortable backgrounds, when to college etc. As a result of that very few were sent to Vietnam.
The American mainstream was upset about the causalties (which disproportionatly fell upon blacks and the white working class) and the mishandling of the war. They did not like their dead relatives being described as tools of imperialism or whatever by some counter-culture (and boy did/does the mainstream hate that) hippies who had avoided the same war that there relatives had died in purely due to an accident of birth.
The Anti War Left was able to take control of the national Democrats in 1972 and picked McGovern as Presidential candidate. He articulated the moral outrage of the Anti War left about Vietnam. He got crushed like a bug especially in working class areas.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

1972 wasn't so bad

I beg to differ:

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Oh please... the Democrats only held both due to the fact that rather a lot of incumbents distanced themselves from McGovern (quite a few even endorsed Nixon).
Voting for a Dixiecrat is not the same as voting for someone like McGovern. Voting for an Appalachian populist is not the same as voting for someone like McGovern. Voting for an old fashioned New Deal blue collar liberal is not the same as voting for someone like McGovern.

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More Americans died in Vietnam under Nixon's leadership than LBJ's.

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[Filuwaúrdjan]

You guys are only offering this "advice" people you're pro-war. Time for the Democratic party to ignore you warmongers and listen to the 61% who disapprove of Bush on the war.

Did you actually read the little piece on the Left's mistakes over Vietnam or not?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Poverty is the result of lack of power,

Utter rubbish. I disagree with the assertion that poverty is somehow the fault of the poor (this is certainly the case with a small, but very visable, minority) but that sort of crypto-marxist bullsh*t is so out of touch with reality it's almost comical.

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No... no it isn't. Cirrhosis is something of a social leveller.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Its either one or the other, Al.

No, it's neither (except in a few cases). The primary cause of most poverty is ultimately a lack (whether real or percived) of opportunity. Power doesn't come into it unless you redefine the word away from all meaning.

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And you happen to be wrong there as well. A rich [active] alcoholic is usually viewed as a worse person than a poor [active] alcoholic; there's usually some degree of pity with the latter, none whatsoever with the former.

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Dying an excruciatingly painful death is "beside the point"?