WaPo: Mueller now investigating whether Trump obstructed justice

[ApatheticAustrian]

What if Mueller determines Trump did obstruct justice? It all still has to go through the Republican congress right?

If they chose not to act on Mueller's conclusion, how do yo guys think the country would react?

well, nothing happens before midterms...house could flip but dem are still going to lose seats...

...so i guess lame-duck president till 2020.

[GeorgiaModerate]

What if Mueller determines Trump did obstruct justice? It all still has to go through the Republican congress right?

If they chose not to act on Mueller's conclusion, how do yo guys think the country would react?

well, nothing happens before midterms...house could flip but dem are still going to lose seats...

...so i guess lame-duck president till 2020.

If Mueller releases a truly damning report before the midterms and Congress does nothing with it, then I think Dems will flip the House decisively (at least 50 seats) and the Senate as well.  This is probably the only development that could flip the Senate.

[Kingpoleon]

If anyone honestly think the GOP would impeach Trump, you're either naive or insane.

We don't need the whole GOP. Just enough to hit 218 in the House and 67 in the Senate. A tall order, but midterms + a hypothetical indictment make it much more attainable.

Would 15 GOP senators vote to impeach?

Well, if it gets to the Senate, it would be a vote to convict, so I assume it would depend on what evidence Mueller puts forward, which will presumably not be for a while. If you're looking for a list of 15 Republicans who might vote against Trump, here's roughly my list based on Clinton-state Republicans, those with a moderate/maverick reputation, and those with a personal beef with Trump:

1. Sasse
2. Paul
3. McCain
4. Heller
5. Flake
6. Collins
7. Murkowski
8. Portman
9. Gardner
10. Rubio
11. Lee
12. Hatch
13. Corker
14. Young
15. Cruz - it would certainly be interesting to watch the battle of "he said my dad killed JFK" vs. "I love how much everyone hates me" play out in Cruz's head

I would add Graham to this list as well.

Ah yes. I thought I had him, but maybe my brain just reads McCain and just thinks Graham. Edited.

No way in hell Paul, Cruz (who should but won't because he's a weakling), Corker, and Hatch vote for impeachment. I only see McCain, Sasse, and Graham voting if the evidence is strong enough, with Collins and Murkowski in the mix if the evidence is solid, in which case Trump would and should absolutely be impeached.

If Trump vacates, this would be the perfect time for the GOP to moderate while keeping some of Trump's economic platform (pushing for fair trade to prevent Rust Belt from absolute destruction, etc.). His presidency could actually do this better than a Cruz one or a Pence one could (since Trump is not as conservative as Cruz).

It just wont happen...Trump's entire campaign is based around a central lie that he can stop Globalism. He can't and he never will, nor did he intend to. Remember back in February when he told us he will start tweaking NAFTA...we never heard from him again.

They're working on it. They expect some type of deal by October.

He never said he would "stop globalism," only fight it as a method of helping American workers.

No, he said he would stop it to the best he can, and he has. Take Paris for example. Or his reluctance to embrace NATO without securing concessions for America.

Oh ok. I was mistaken. Thanks for correcting me

I wish Atlas had more posts like this - admitting to making a mistake.

[EnglishPete]

Good reference EnglishPete!

Thanks. If you know the plot of that movie and in particular the motivation for the witch hunt in the movie then you'll see its particularly apt.

[EnglishPete]

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

There is no need for Mueller to respond to "witch hunt" malarkey accusations.
He is a professional mature adult who has an important task assigned to him. Very busy man.

On the other hand, we can leave the "witch hunt" childish games to say ..... a narcissistic orange-haired clown, for example. Someone who hides out at a golf course every weekend, who has no serious matters to contend with on a daily basis.
Each task assigned, as described above, to each person fits perfectly ..... doesn't it ?

The GOP has been using the same recycled arguments for over 50 years

Fifty years ago (and indeed sixty five years ago when the witch hunt against McCarthy was going on) there was no alternative to the Liberal media. It was difficult for Nixon to get across the message that he was being subject to a set up and a witch hunt when he could only get the message across via left leaning outlets like the Washington Post or NBC who were supporting the witch hunt.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

There is no need for Mueller to respond to "witch hunt" malarkey accusations.
He is a professional mature adult who has an important task assigned to him. Very busy man.

On the other hand, we can leave the "witch hunt" childish games to say ..... a narcissistic orange-haired clown, for example. Someone who hides out at a golf course every weekend, who has no serious matters to contend with on a daily basis.
Each task assigned, as described above, to each person fits perfectly ..... doesn't it ?

The GOP has been using the same recycled arguments for over 50 years

Fifty years ago (and indeed sixty five years ago when the witch hunt against McCarthy was going on) there was no alternative to the Liberal media. It was difficult for Nixon to get across the message that he was being subject to a set up and a witch hunt when he could only get the message across via left leaning outlets like the Washington Post or NBC who were supporting the witch hunt.

Holy f-ing sh*t are you saying watergate was a witch hunt?!

[GeorgiaModerate]

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

There is no need for Mueller to respond to "witch hunt" malarkey accusations.
He is a professional mature adult who has an important task assigned to him. Very busy man.

On the other hand, we can leave the "witch hunt" childish games to say ..... a narcissistic orange-haired clown, for example. Someone who hides out at a golf course every weekend, who has no serious matters to contend with on a daily basis.
Each task assigned, as described above, to each person fits perfectly ..... doesn't it ?

The GOP has been using the same recycled arguments for over 50 years

Fifty years ago (and indeed sixty five years ago when the witch hunt against McCarthy was going on) there was no alternative to the Liberal media. It was difficult for Nixon to get across the message that he was being subject to a set up and a witch hunt when he could only get the message across via left leaning outlets like the Washington Post or NBC who were supporting the witch hunt.

Holy f-ing sh*t are you saying watergate was a witch hunt?!

Well, based on the wording of his comment, he thinks there was a witch hunt against Joseph McCarthy as well.  To me this looks like obvious trolling, although I suppose it could just be a very different world view.

[EnglishPete]

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

There is no need for Mueller to respond to "witch hunt" malarkey accusations.
He is a professional mature adult who has an important task assigned to him. Very busy man.

On the other hand, we can leave the "witch hunt" childish games to say ..... a narcissistic orange-haired clown, for example. Someone who hides out at a golf course every weekend, who has no serious matters to contend with on a daily basis.
Each task assigned, as described above, to each person fits perfectly ..... doesn't it ?

The GOP has been using the same recycled arguments for over 50 years

Fifty years ago (and indeed sixty five years ago when the witch hunt against McCarthy was going on) there was no alternative to the Liberal media. It was difficult for Nixon to get across the message that he was being subject to a set up and a witch hunt when he could only get the message across via left leaning outlets like the Washington Post or NBC who were supporting the witch hunt.

Holy f-ing sh*t are you saying watergate was a witch hunt?!

Well, based on the wording of his comment, he thinks there was a witch hunt against Joseph McCarthy as well.  To me this looks like obvious trolling, although I suppose it could just be a very different world view.

Read this book if you're interested in learning something about history. What you learned in school about Joe McCarthy is almost the exact opposite of the truth.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000W94GOU

[The_Doctor]

Some people think that there was a witch hunt against Joe McCarthy. I don't think so; McCarthy was sloppy and an alcoholic. His wild assertions obscured the real Communist infiltrators in the State Department, who were there but far fewer in numbers and provenance. I'm one of these Republicans who believe that FDR had been infiltrated by Moscow at the end of his presidency to deal with post-war negotiations (he did fine however) but McCarthy definitely overblew it.

Back to 2017 -- Trump's now indicating he's under investigation, and is attacking everyone in a wild attempt to - I don't even know at this point.

[EnglishPete]

Back to 2017 -- Trump's now indicating he's under investigation, and is attacking everyone in a wild attempt to - I don't even know at this point.

Its an attempt to get people to either understand that this is a cynical partisan witch hunt or at the very least make them lose faith that the investigation is faith, trustworthy, non partisan and authoritative.

People are much more cynical about Washington institutions than they were in the early seventies or in the early fifties and also Trump and his supporters have access to large scale alternative media and social media that wasn't available back then. This means that the task of undermining and destroying people's faith in the justness of a DC investigation is much easier than it was forty five years ago.

Trump understands that offense is the best form of defense. Constantly defending his innocence against non stop barrage of accusations can only ever be a holding action. He has to constantly point out and get people to understand the guilt of his accusers.

[Hindsight was 2020]

It's kinda hard Pete to raise legitimate doubt over this being a "witch hunt" when Trump changes his story over Comey's firing constantly. First it was Rosensteins idea, then he says it was his idea and goes on Lester Holt and repeats that, and again we are now back on it being Rosensteins idea

[EnglishPete]

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

There is no need for Mueller to respond to "witch hunt" malarkey accusations.
He is a professional mature adult who has an important task assigned to him. Very busy man.

On the other hand, we can leave the "witch hunt" childish games to say ..... a narcissistic orange-haired clown, for example. Someone who hides out at a golf course every weekend, who has no serious matters to contend with on a daily basis.
Each task assigned, as described above, to each person fits perfectly ..... doesn't it ?

The GOP has been using the same recycled arguments for over 50 years

Fifty years ago (and indeed sixty five years ago when the witch hunt against McCarthy was going on) there was no alternative to the Liberal media. It was difficult for Nixon to get across the message that he was being subject to a set up and a witch hunt when he could only get the message across via left leaning outlets like the Washington Post or NBC who were supporting the witch hunt.

Those 'excuses' illustrate exactly my point about the weakness of playing defense. They are all defensive. All of them of excusing or minimising the actions of Nixon. None of the 36 'excuses' talk about the entire thing being a set up or a deep state conspiracy. None question the legitimacy of the press (one says that the press is 'blowing the whole thing up' i.e. that the press is making a meal out of little. That is not the same thing as questioning the legitimacy of the Washington Post altogether). The accusations against the then President's accusers in Congress is that they are hypocrites who are complaining about things when they are as bad themselves. No suggestion that his accusers are putchists who are deliberately propagating accusation they know to be false.

It is not enough for President Trump to try to defend his own legitimacy, he has to destroy the legitimacy of his accusers.

[EnglishPete]

It's kinda hard Pete to raise legitimate doubt over this being a "witch hunt" when Trump changes his story over Comey's firing constantly. First it was Rosensteins idea, then he says it was his idea and goes on Lester Holt and repeats that, and again we are now back on it being Rosensteins idea

Its really not difficult to understand. Trump decided to fire Comey. However before going ahead and telling people his decision he decided it would be sensible to get a second opinion. He asks Rosenstein. Rosenstein also comes the conclusion that firing Comey was the right thing to do and writes up an opinion to that effect. He then fires Comey. Its quite possible for to people for two people to come up with the same idea independently of one another, especially if its a sensible idea.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Or what actually happened Trump wanted Comey fired to end the Russian investigation so he Sessions order Rosenstein draw up some half assed legal cover over how the Hillary probe was handled to justify it

[The_Doctor]

Please note that Mueller's team includes people who have expertise in organized crime and money laundering, as well as Watergate and other assorted activities like Eastern Europe.

This is relevant because Trump's mob ties have been there for decades, since it was a cornerstone of the New York real estate business. He's also had Russian ties dating to 2008, or so, I believe. That's the bigger story right now.

Jared Kushner is probably a prime target of the Mueller investigation as is Paul Manafort given the composition of the legal team.

[EnglishPete]

Or what actually happened Trump wanted Comey fired to end the Russian investigation so he Sessions order Rosenstein draw up some half assed legal cover over how the Hillary probe was handled to justify it

So you're questioning Rosentein's integrity. You're saying that the person responsible for picking Mueller for the job is someone who lacks integrity. Well that's a start. It doesn't get you all the way to doubting the integrity of the entire process but its a first step.

Trump just needs to get people making these little steps and that's the way he can get them to lose their faith in the entire investigation.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Notice Peter cares more about Trump "winning" on this then the truth

[Ebsy]

Sort of astounding that anyone could be so gullible as to believe that pile of horses[Inks].

[ProudModerate2]

Notice Peter cares more about Trump "winning" on this then the truth

He probably uses his nonsense on pro-trump sites, and notices how his malarkey works wonders on the ignorant. So then he comes here to Atlas using the same lines of bs, and is in disbelief on why his "magic" doesn't work, not thinking that the audience here is more informed and educated.

[EnglishPete]

Notice Peter cares more about Trump "winning" on this then the truth

The truth is that this is a partisan witch hunt. That much should be obvious and yet for many millions of people it isn't obvious because for many millions of people they still have a certain level of unearned faith in the institutions of Washington DC and the establishment media. That's why Trump and his supporters and surrogates have to keep explaining this and repeating it, to get the message across. Its not enough to have truth on your side, you have to communicate that truth effectively.

[Virginiá]

The truth is that this is a partisan witch hunt. That much should be obvious [...]

That you think it "should be obvious" shows just how far gone you are. It's like you exist in an alternate reality where Trump is an upstanding man of unrivaled integrity.

[Inmate Trump]

Notice Peter cares more about Trump "winning" on this then the truth

The truth is that this is a partisan witch hunt. That much should be obvious and yet for many millions of people it isn't obvious because for many millions of people they still have a certain level of unearned faith in the institutions of Washington DC and the establishment media. That's why Trump and his supporters and surrogates have to keep explaining this and repeating it, to get the message across. Its not enough to have truth on your side, you have to communicate that truth effectively.

How can you seriously believe the talking point that this is just a silly witch hunt?

[EnglishPete]

Notice Peter cares more about Trump "winning" on this then the truth

The truth is that this is a partisan witch hunt. That much should be obvious and yet for many millions of people it isn't obvious because for many millions of people they still have a certain level of unearned faith in the institutions of Washington DC and the establishment media. That's why Trump and his supporters and surrogates have to keep explaining this and repeating it, to get the message across. Its not enough to have truth on your side, you have to communicate that truth effectively.

How can you seriously believe the talking point that this is just a silly witch hunt?

Because all the evidence points in the direction of it being a partisan which hunt. I came to that conclusion a long time ago, long before Trump or anyone else ever suggested the term 'witch hunt'.

Its an observable fact that both the Washington establishment and the liberal media have been ultra hostile to Trump since the Primaries. When there was the hack/leak of the emails form the DNC at the time of the convention and the Dems came out with the story that it was the Russians who hacked them I found the story a little suspect. Later when I learned that their 'evidence' for this conclusion had been a report from a company called 'Crowdstrike' whose methods were suspect and whose evidence for their conclusions had been completely discredited and when I also learned that the FBI had made no effort to examine the DNC servers themselves it becomes pretty obvious that this 'the Russians interfered in the election' is a cooked up story.

Then during the election people started asking Trump about the alleged 'Russian interference' and making suggestions that Trump might be linked with it or that there might be a 'quid pro quo' despite there being no evidence of any collusion well its obvious at that point that that you've got not only a cooked up excuse but a cooked up partisan smear.

Then when, as soon as Trump won the election, the very next day, people started demanding an investigation of Trump and saying he should be impeached. Well from that day onwards its been completely obvious to me (and it should be obvious to everyone else if they took their blinkers off) that this is and has been a partisan witch hunt. Everything that's happened since then has provided more and more evidence that its a partisan witch hunt and I find it very difficult to see how people can come to any other conclusion without wearing some pretty heavy political blinkers.

[Inmate Trump]

There is just so much pointing to collusion that I no longer think it even remotely possible that there wasn't something nefarious happening during the campaign between Trump's people and Russia.

I don't see how anyone can look at all the facts and evidence stacked up together and not see a connection.

[Crumpets]

Since May 9th, it doesn't really matter anymore what relation the Trump campaign had with the Russians during the election, since the firing of James Comey made obstruction of justice a much easier target for prosecutors and those seeking impeachment. Nixon almost certainly had no knowledge of the Watergate break-in before it took place, and had he just let the investigation follow its course, he might have gotten away with just losing John Mitchell. The cover-up after the fact was what took down his entire administration.