WaPo: Mueller now investigating whether Trump obstructed justice

[EnglishPete]

I don't think Congress will impeach Trump. It's GOP controlled and he would need to hemorrhage GOP support in order for GOP to impeach

I don't know.
It's too early to tell.
If Muller discloses massive and decisive evidence, then the GOP may have no choice.
Otherwise, Americans will be in complete shock and will vote many of them out, en masse, come 2018.

Would the GOP in face of massive evidence of misconduct defend trump?

We keep hearing about this 'massive evidence' of wrongdoing that's going to be emerging but never does. All the evidence the Dems need is that they don't like Trump. This is yet another Dem witch hunt. There isn't going to be any real evidence for collusion or obstruction because it didn't happen. Its just a political matter of getting enough Republicans to climb aboard with the witch hunt.

[EnglishPete]

The main Russia investigation of potential collusion probably would have spun in its heels and gone nowhere.

Wrong.

Political witch hunts never end with the witch hunters saying "well we have to admit it, we've got nothing". They would just drag it out and have it continue and continue until they got something. They've been forced to admit that they had nothing on Trump so their next line is "We've been forced to admit we had nothing on Trump. However the process by which we were forced to admit that is 'obstruction' so Catch - 22 we've now got something on him again"

The blatant disingenuousness of all this political theatre is really nothing to behold. Sentence first, verdict afterwards. The sentence of this 'investigation' has already been decided, impeachment. They're now just looking for a verdict to get the sentence they want. If you honestly believe that the conclusion of this 'investigation' was going to be determined by the evidence above the political goals they you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

[EnglishPete]

#LockHimUp! #LockHimUp! #LockHimUp! #LockHimUp! *times infinity*

Orange really is the new black, in more ways than one now. The Fear Leader is already tweeting about it. Sad!

How many more days until Mueller is fired?

No point is firing Mueller is there? he'll just get replaced by some other witchfinder general

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump  8h8 hours ago
 They made up a phony collusion with the Russians story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice

Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump  7h7 hours ago
 You are witnessing the single greatest WITCH HUNT in American political history - led by some very bad and conflicted people!  #MAGA

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

[EnglishPete]

Good reference EnglishPete!

Thanks. If you know the plot of that movie and in particular the motivation for the witch hunt in the movie then you'll see its particularly apt.

[EnglishPete]

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

There is no need for Mueller to respond to "witch hunt" malarkey accusations.
He is a professional mature adult who has an important task assigned to him. Very busy man.

On the other hand, we can leave the "witch hunt" childish games to say ..... a narcissistic orange-haired clown, for example. Someone who hides out at a golf course every weekend, who has no serious matters to contend with on a daily basis.
Each task assigned, as described above, to each person fits perfectly ..... doesn't it ?

The GOP has been using the same recycled arguments for over 50 years

Fifty years ago (and indeed sixty five years ago when the witch hunt against McCarthy was going on) there was no alternative to the Liberal media. It was difficult for Nixon to get across the message that he was being subject to a set up and a witch hunt when he could only get the message across via left leaning outlets like the Washington Post or NBC who were supporting the witch hunt.

[EnglishPete]

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

There is no need for Mueller to respond to "witch hunt" malarkey accusations.
He is a professional mature adult who has an important task assigned to him. Very busy man.

On the other hand, we can leave the "witch hunt" childish games to say ..... a narcissistic orange-haired clown, for example. Someone who hides out at a golf course every weekend, who has no serious matters to contend with on a daily basis.
Each task assigned, as described above, to each person fits perfectly ..... doesn't it ?

The GOP has been using the same recycled arguments for over 50 years

Fifty years ago (and indeed sixty five years ago when the witch hunt against McCarthy was going on) there was no alternative to the Liberal media. It was difficult for Nixon to get across the message that he was being subject to a set up and a witch hunt when he could only get the message across via left leaning outlets like the Washington Post or NBC who were supporting the witch hunt.

Holy f-ing sh*t are you saying watergate was a witch hunt?!

Well, based on the wording of his comment, he thinks there was a witch hunt against Joseph McCarthy as well.  To me this looks like obvious trolling, although I suppose it could just be a very different world view.

Read this book if you're interested in learning something about history. What you learned in school about Joe McCarthy is almost the exact opposite of the truth.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000W94GOU

[EnglishPete]

Back to 2017 -- Trump's now indicating he's under investigation, and is attacking everyone in a wild attempt to - I don't even know at this point.

Its an attempt to get people to either understand that this is a cynical partisan witch hunt or at the very least make them lose faith that the investigation is faith, trustworthy, non partisan and authoritative.

People are much more cynical about Washington institutions than they were in the early seventies or in the early fifties and also Trump and his supporters have access to large scale alternative media and social media that wasn't available back then. This means that the task of undermining and destroying people's faith in the justness of a DC investigation is much easier than it was forty five years ago.

Trump understands that offense is the best form of defense. Constantly defending his innocence against non stop barrage of accusations can only ever be a holding action. He has to constantly point out and get people to understand the guilt of his accusers.

[EnglishPete]

Mueller responds to the charge that he is involved in a witch hunt

There is no need for Mueller to respond to "witch hunt" malarkey accusations.
He is a professional mature adult who has an important task assigned to him. Very busy man.

On the other hand, we can leave the "witch hunt" childish games to say ..... a narcissistic orange-haired clown, for example. Someone who hides out at a golf course every weekend, who has no serious matters to contend with on a daily basis.
Each task assigned, as described above, to each person fits perfectly ..... doesn't it ?

The GOP has been using the same recycled arguments for over 50 years

Fifty years ago (and indeed sixty five years ago when the witch hunt against McCarthy was going on) there was no alternative to the Liberal media. It was difficult for Nixon to get across the message that he was being subject to a set up and a witch hunt when he could only get the message across via left leaning outlets like the Washington Post or NBC who were supporting the witch hunt.

Those 'excuses' illustrate exactly my point about the weakness of playing defense. They are all defensive. All of them of excusing or minimising the actions of Nixon. None of the 36 'excuses' talk about the entire thing being a set up or a deep state conspiracy. None question the legitimacy of the press (one says that the press is 'blowing the whole thing up' i.e. that the press is making a meal out of little. That is not the same thing as questioning the legitimacy of the Washington Post altogether). The accusations against the then President's accusers in Congress is that they are hypocrites who are complaining about things when they are as bad themselves. No suggestion that his accusers are putchists who are deliberately propagating accusation they know to be false.

It is not enough for President Trump to try to defend his own legitimacy, he has to destroy the legitimacy of his accusers.

[EnglishPete]

It's kinda hard Pete to raise legitimate doubt over this being a "witch hunt" when Trump changes his story over Comey's firing constantly. First it was Rosensteins idea, then he says it was his idea and goes on Lester Holt and repeats that, and again we are now back on it being Rosensteins idea

Its really not difficult to understand. Trump decided to fire Comey. However before going ahead and telling people his decision he decided it would be sensible to get a second opinion. He asks Rosenstein. Rosenstein also comes the conclusion that firing Comey was the right thing to do and writes up an opinion to that effect. He then fires Comey. Its quite possible for to people for two people to come up with the same idea independently of one another, especially if its a sensible idea.

[EnglishPete]

Or what actually happened Trump wanted Comey fired to end the Russian investigation so he Sessions order Rosenstein draw up some half assed legal cover over how the Hillary probe was handled to justify it

So you're questioning Rosentein's integrity. You're saying that the person responsible for picking Mueller for the job is someone who lacks integrity. Well that's a start. It doesn't get you all the way to doubting the integrity of the entire process but its a first step.

Trump just needs to get people making these little steps and that's the way he can get them to lose their faith in the entire investigation.

[EnglishPete]

Notice Peter cares more about Trump "winning" on this then the truth

The truth is that this is a partisan witch hunt. That much should be obvious and yet for many millions of people it isn't obvious because for many millions of people they still have a certain level of unearned faith in the institutions of Washington DC and the establishment media. That's why Trump and his supporters and surrogates have to keep explaining this and repeating it, to get the message across. Its not enough to have truth on your side, you have to communicate that truth effectively.

[EnglishPete]

Notice Peter cares more about Trump "winning" on this then the truth

The truth is that this is a partisan witch hunt. That much should be obvious and yet for many millions of people it isn't obvious because for many millions of people they still have a certain level of unearned faith in the institutions of Washington DC and the establishment media. That's why Trump and his supporters and surrogates have to keep explaining this and repeating it, to get the message across. Its not enough to have truth on your side, you have to communicate that truth effectively.

How can you seriously believe the talking point that this is just a silly witch hunt?

Because all the evidence points in the direction of it being a partisan which hunt. I came to that conclusion a long time ago, long before Trump or anyone else ever suggested the term 'witch hunt'.

Its an observable fact that both the Washington establishment and the liberal media have been ultra hostile to Trump since the Primaries. When there was the hack/leak of the emails form the DNC at the time of the convention and the Dems came out with the story that it was the Russians who hacked them I found the story a little suspect. Later when I learned that their 'evidence' for this conclusion had been a report from a company called 'Crowdstrike' whose methods were suspect and whose evidence for their conclusions had been completely discredited and when I also learned that the FBI had made no effort to examine the DNC servers themselves it becomes pretty obvious that this 'the Russians interfered in the election' is a cooked up story.

Then during the election people started asking Trump about the alleged 'Russian interference' and making suggestions that Trump might be linked with it or that there might be a 'quid pro quo' despite there being no evidence of any collusion well its obvious at that point that that you've got not only a cooked up excuse but a cooked up partisan smear.

Then when, as soon as Trump won the election, the very next day, people started demanding an investigation of Trump and saying he should be impeached. Well from that day onwards its been completely obvious to me (and it should be obvious to everyone else if they took their blinkers off) that this is and has been a partisan witch hunt. Everything that's happened since then has provided more and more evidence that its a partisan witch hunt and I find it very difficult to see how people can come to any other conclusion without wearing some pretty heavy political blinkers.

[EnglishPete]

Notice Peter cares more about Trump "winning" on this then the truth

The truth is that this is a partisan witch hunt. That much should be obvious and yet for many millions of people it isn't obvious because for many millions of people they still have a certain level of unearned faith in the institutions of Washington DC and the establishment media. That's why Trump and his supporters and surrogates have to keep explaining this and repeating it, to get the message across. Its not enough to have truth on your side, you have to communicate that truth effectively.

How can you seriously believe the talking point that this is just a silly witch hunt?

Because all the evidence points in the direction of it being a partisan which hunt. I came to that conclusion a long time ago, long before Trump or anyone else ever suggested the term 'witch hunt'.

Its an observable fact that both the Washington establishment and the liberal media have been ultra hostile to Trump since the Primaries. When there was the hack/leak of the emails form the DNC at the time of the convention and the Dems came out with the story that it was the Russians who hacked them I found the story a little suspect. Later when I learned that their 'evidence' for this conclusion had been a report from a company called 'Crowdstrike' whose methods were suspect and whose evidence for their conclusions had been completely discredited and when I also learned that the FBI had made no effort to examine the DNC servers themselves it becomes pretty obvious that this 'the Russians interfered in the election' is a cooked up story.

Then during the election people started asking Trump about the alleged 'Russian interference' and making suggestions that Trump might be linked with it or that there might be a 'quid pro quo' despite there being no evidence of any collusion well its obvious at that point that that you've got not only a cooked up excuse but a cooked up partisan smear.

Then when, as soon as Trump won the election, the very next day, people started demanding an investigation of Trump and saying he should be impeached. Well from that day onwards its been completely obvious to me (and it should be obvious to everyone else if they took their blinkers off) that this is and has been a partisan witch hunt. Everything that's happened since then has provided more and more evidence that its a partisan witch hunt and I find it very difficult to see how people can come to any other conclusion without wearing some pretty heavy political blinkers.

In giving some credit to EnglishPete...he may very well be right that the whole Russia thing is a farce. Democrats really ought to have a plan if it turns out that they completely wasted their entire time investigating nothing. I mean...imagine in if Dems win the house in 2018 and get Trump's tax returns and they reveal nothing. The Dems will look like dopes.

Oh they're not wasting their time investigating nothing. They've already investigated and found nothing and jumped up and down washing "we got something, impeachment". You seem to imagine a world where the investigation will end and there will either be an overwhelming consensus that Trump is guilty based on the evidence or there will be an overwhelming consensus that it is a witch hunt. There is no evidence that either will happen.

I quoted to you the recent poll above that said that 47% of the US public thought this investigation is a witch hunt and 48% disagreed. Your statement I'm replying to here assumes that at the end of the process some unambiguous, clear and irrefutable evidence will emerge which will cause public opinion to come down overwhelmingly on one side or the others. But everything that's happened so far shows that people interpret the evidence through the light of their prior ideological and epistemological glasses and that no such unambiguous evidence can therefore exist.

When the investigation process ends public opinion will be as divided on the matter of Trump's guilt as it is now. Impeachment will then come down to a vote along party lines in the House and Senate. Now you might say 'well that wasn't the case with Nixon, plenty of Republicans saw the light and turned against Nixon'. The difference is that back then the liberal media had a near monopoly and were able to build national consensuses on various issues in a way that is no longer possible. Now we have a fragmented media market. Now Republican read Republican news and Dems read Dem news. Its a different world