German legislative election, 2017

[Zinneke]

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

Antifa are totalitarian loonies who are more useful to right-wingers looking for a convenient bogeyman than anyone else. Why should their disapproval mean anything?

To be fair, the antifa movement in Germany is far bigger, far broader in terms of ideology and thus far more influential, than say in the US, or even France where the movement was born. So its a valid point, even if there are a few loonies.

[warandwar]

The Left

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I mean Merkel herself calls the refugee wave last year reckless on her part.

[Hifly]

Ah, an election I can vote in.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

Antifa are totalitarian loonies who are more useful to right-wingers looking for a convenient bogeyman than anyone else. Why should their disapproval mean anything?

Agree with their actions or not, I've never seen them go after someone who is sympathetic. Milo and Richard Spencer certainly aren't.

And speaking of "totalitarian loonies", what are Stasi veterans?

[Boston Bread]

Wagenknecht's stance on refugees seems sensible to me. I was happy with the 50000 refugees Canada took in over the past year, but if we took in (proportionally) as many as Germany, that would be 300000 for Canada. Germany had most of them arriving by land so they'd be far less vetted as well. I agree that it was reckless.

My main reason for not supporting Linke is because of authoritarian/anti-West tendencies. I won't argue on that.

But learning that Antifa attacked Wagenknecht makes me dislike Antifa, not Wagenknecht. Attacks on Spencer I disagreed with, but at least it made sense for an anti-fascist group. Attacking Wagenknecht makes them seem less anti-fascist and more anti-anyone who is not pure leftist.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

The stasi people aren't really on Wagenknacht's wing of the party...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

Antifa are totalitarian loonies who are more useful to right-wingers looking for a convenient bogeyman than anyone else. Why should their disapproval mean anything?

Agree with their actions or not, I've never seen them go after someone who is sympathetic. Milo and Richard Spencer certainly aren't.

And speaking of "totalitarian loonies", what are Stasi veterans?

Stop being obtuse. If you can't answer my question, then don't waste my time.

I did. My point is even if you don't like Antifa tactics, I've never heard of them going after someone sympathetic or worthwhile. Wagenknacht is now in the same category as Milo Yiannopoulos and Richard Spencer.

And hell, I'd still take Antifa over Stasi any day.

[DavidB.]

German antifa are also different than American antifa -- the country has a rather different history and also a different history with the far left -- but then again, you would not expect someone as America-centric as BRTD to get that.

[Santander]

German antifa are also different than American antifa -- the country has a rather different history and also a different history with the far left -- but then again, you would not expect someone as BRTD America-centric as BRTD to get that.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Obviously the concept of "voting for" someone doesn't exist as much in a PR system, but if I lived in Germany, I'd have two ironclad rules in regards to any direct election of a person:

-I'd never vote for a WWII veteran.
-I'd never vote for a Stasi veteran.

[DavidB.]

Obviously the concept of "voting for" someone doesn't exist as much in a PR system, but if I lived in Germany, I'd have two ironclad rules in regards to any direct election of a person:

-I'd never vote for a WWII veteran.
-I'd never vote for a Stasi veteran.

I agree with this.

[America Needs R'hllor]

1. CDU
2. FDP
3. SPD
4. Greens

5. Die Linke

6. AfD

Wildly changing my preference.

1. Greens
2. SPD
3. FDP
4. CDU/CSU

5. Die Linke

6. AfD

[Sozialliberal]

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

#best analysis

https://www.thelocal.de/20160725/merkels-refugee-policy-was-reckless-die-linke

The leader of Linke is f[inks]ing garbage.

Whatever you think about Wagenknecht,her views are not representative of the party.

And is saying Merkel's refugee policy reckless really the worst thing ever.

She's the leader, her views are the party.

LOL, in case you've missed it: The party has changed since Honecker left. It's now accepted that members might have a different opinion from that of the party leadership sometimes. They won't arrest them.

Obviously the concept of "voting for" someone doesn't exist as much in a PR system, but if I lived in Germany, I'd have two ironclad rules in regards to any direct election of a person:

-I'd never vote for a WWII veteran.
-I'd never vote for a Stasi veteran.

I agree with this.

I agree only in the case of high-ranking veterans, but not in the case of low-ranking ones. Look, you and I are living in a pluralistic democracy. So it's very easy for us to judge people who lived in a totalitarian dictatorship and were brainwashed into following the official state ideology. I believe in giving people a second chance after some time has passed if they sincerely show remorse for their misdeeds.

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

Antifa are totalitarian loonies who are more useful to right-wingers looking for a convenient bogeyman than anyone else. Why should their disapproval mean anything?

To be fair, the antifa movement in Germany is far bigger, far broader in terms of ideology and thus far more influential, than say in the US, or even France where the movement was born. So its a valid point, even if there are a few loonies.

Fair enough, but I still don't get why I'm supposed to dislike a party just because some hooligan through a pastry at one of its leaders.

e: Wagenknecht's great crime seems to be saying that Germany shouldn't take more than one million refugees per year. It's difficult to see what's so outrageous and horrifying about that.

Something else bothers me about her. In 2006, a memorial stone dedicated to the victims of Stalinism was put up beside the Memorial to the Socialists in a Berlin cemetery, where Die Linke commemorate Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht every year, who co-founded the Communist Party of Germany in 1919 and were murdered in the same year. Sahra Wagenknecht called this memorial stone a "provocation for many socialists and communists". Whereas other Die Linke politicians such as Katja Kipping, Bernd Riexinger and Gregor Gysi lay down floral wreaths in front of the memorial stone to the victims of Stalinism after commemorating Luxemburg and Liebknecht, Wagenknecht and her husband Oskar Lafontaine don't do that.

This time: FDP

Why do you so commonly support centrist parties?? Are you an avowed "incrementalist" like MAINEiac?

I was a naive left-leftist 10-15 years ago, but became more centrist over the years, yeah.

Centrism is the way forward, so I will back those parties with common-sense policies, except for people like Hillary Clinton, who are frauds.

I wouldn't call the FDP centrist. They're clearly to the right of CDU/CSU on economics.

Amazing how so many leftists here are voting for an anti-refugee Stasi party. Sahra Wagenknecht has been targeted and harassed by antifas before.

Antifa are totalitarian loonies who are more useful to right-wingers looking for a convenient bogeyman than anyone else. Why should their disapproval mean anything?

To be fair, the antifa movement in Germany is far bigger, far broader in terms of ideology and thus far more influential, than say in the US, or even France where the movement was born. So its a valid point, even if there are a few loonies.

I, as a German, got the same impression of the Antifa as Averroës.

[Dr Oz Lost Party!]

The CDU is practically the only political party capable of governing Germany imo, so yeah.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

LOL, "too much" culture of open debate often constitutes one of the Greens' main problems compared to the other parties.

(Well, while I don't have a problem with it personally, it's a problem that the media tends to scandalize lack of conformity.)

[parochial boy]

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

What's the appeal of Frei Wahler? I thought they were just a bunch of CSU dissidents?

[Kingpoleon]

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

Really? You prefer Die Linke to the FDP and the Greens? I thought you were more of a Free Voters person who, of the bigger parties, prefers FDP.

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Yeah, Germany stopped doing that in the 1940s.

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Not all of them. It's more, in my opinion, the usual divide between Christian democrats and European liberals. The former are generally considered more right-wing because they are more populist or communitarian in ideology, which generally indicates not being overly centrist.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The CDU is practically the only political party capable of governing Germany imo, so yeah.

lol

[IceAgeComing]

Kingpoleon: please read more widely about international politics than wikipedia, since if you did you wouldn't be claiming that the CDU are to the right (on economics) of the bloody FDP who have never found anything that they haven't claimed a market would fix.

The CDU is practically the only political party capable of governing Germany imo, so yeah.

And why isn't the SPD "capable of governing Germany"?  They're probably the most centrist, boring "social Democratic" party around in the west.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

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Not all of them. It's more, in my opinion, the usual divide between Christian democrats and European liberals. The former are generally considered more right-wing because they are more populist or communitarian in ideology, which generally indicates not being overly centrist.

Communitarianism as understood by Christian Democracy involves a centrist position as a third way alternative to liberal individualism and socialist collectivism.  And when they have called themselves "popular" parties, it means they aim to be parties of all social classes rather than pitting one against the other.

[Kingpoleon]

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Not all of them. It's more, in my opinion, the usual divide between Christian democrats and European liberals. The former are generally considered more right-wing because they are more populist or communitarian in ideology, which generally indicates not being overly centrist.

Communitarianism as understood by Christian Democracy involves a centrist position as a third way alternative to liberal individualism and socialist collectivism.  And when they have called themselves "popular" parties, it means they aim to be parties of all social classes rather than pitting one against the other.

Of course. I didn't intend to contend that the FDP isn't economically to the right of the CDU/CSU, just not by quite as much as is usually suggested. On social issues such as gay marriage, the FDP is clearly to their left.

[TheSaint250]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Not all of them. It's more, in my opinion, the usual divide between Christian democrats and European liberals. The former are generally considered more right-wing because they are more populist or communitarian in ideology, which generally indicates not being overly centrist.

Communitarianism as understood by Christian Democracy involves a centrist position as a third way alternative to liberal individualism and socialist collectivism.  And when they have called themselves "popular" parties, it means they aim to be parties of all social classes rather than pitting one against the other.

Of course. I didn't intend to contend that the FDP isn't economically to the right of the CDU/CSU, just not by quite as much as is usually suggested. On social issues such as gay marriage, the FDP is clearly to their left.

That's the beauty of European liberalism: to the right of some and to the left of others

[Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan]

ÖDP

[Sozialliberal]

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

What's the appeal of Frei Wahler? I thought they were just a bunch of CSU dissidents?

What I like about the Free Voters is that they reject any kind of political extremism, no matter if it comes from the left or the right. Apart from trying to find the political middle ground and advocating for more subsidiarity, direct democracy and transparency of the state, the individual members have pretty diverse views on issues, which they think is a strength. They also like to use the words "down-to-earth" and "common sense" a lot.

To get a better understanding of the Free Voters, let's take a look at their federal chairman. His name is Hubert Aiwanger, and he's not a regular kind of politician. Aiwanger is a folksy small-scale farmer. His family keeps about 60 pigs and 35 cattle on their farm in a Bavarian hamlet of about 70 people, where he lives when he's not busy with politics. I think Aiwanger is excellent at delivering speeches, and he radiates a lot of confidence when's delivering them. He reminds me a little bit of Jimmy Carter. Carter's message in 1976 and Aiwanger's in 2017 is basically this: "I'm a man from the country who speaks plain and simple English/German. Federal politics is not as good as it used to be, but I want to restore the trust in politics." Of course, the current situation in Germany is not as bad as the situation in the United States directly after the Watergate scandal, but I think the trust in politics is considerably lower now than it was 30 or 40 years ago.

While I'd say that the Free Voters' electorate in their stronghold Bavaria consists mostly of former CSU voters, I'd also point out that there are some issues on which the Free Voters disagree with the CSU and agree with the SPD/Greens in the Bavarian state parliament. What happened in Bavaria was that the CSU uninterruptedly stayed in power for so long, and they were becoming arrogant over time. They acted as if they owned Bavaria, and they still do. Those were ideal conditions for the Free Voters to thrive. They're the third largest party in the state parliament now. They got more votes than the Greens, the FDP or Die Linke in the last state election.

I voted for the Pirates in 2013, but I switched to the Free Voters because the Pirate Party has collapsed and I think the Free Voters have more realistic views on immigration/asylum, which has become such an important issue since the crisis broke out in 2015. There's definitely a policy overlap between the two parties. They're both in favour of higher state transparency and more direct democracy.

On the one hand, the Free Voters are in favour of prohibiting large donations to political parties, preventing that high-ranking public office holders work in the private sector directly after the end of their political career, regulating system-relevant banks more, keeping public infrastructure under state ownership.

On the other hand, they have also business-friendly policies: Eliminating bureaucratic regulations, promoting start-up companies, assisting small and medium-sized enterprises with digitalization, introducing an immigration law based on the Canadian model.

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

Really? You prefer Die Linke to the FDP and the Greens? I thought you were more of a Free Voters person who, of the bigger parties, prefers FDP.

Oh, you think that because I said something positive about Die Linke? Well, actually no. If I really had only those six options on my ballot, I'd vote either for the FDP or the SPD. I'm aware that my politics may seem a bit contradictory to some, but let me explain: On the one hand, I'm in favour of promoting an entrepreneurial spirit and eliminating bureaucratic regulations, which is what the FDP stands for. On the other hand, I want the state to provide a strong social safety net and give real opportunities to disadvantaged people, which is what the SPD is supposed to stand for.

I strongly disagree with Die Linke on some issues. While the FDP is the party of big business, Die Linke is the party of big government. However, I must acknowledge that they're currently the only party in the Bundestag that steadfastly resists corporate lobbying. If the opinion polls indicated that they're in danger of dropping out of the Bundestag, I could be tempted to hold my nose and vote for Die Linke because I think their opposition work is much needed in today's Germany.

Fortunately, I have more options on my ballot than these listed in the poll. If you don't know it already, I'm going to vote for the Free Voters (Freie Wähler).

Some things I find appalling about the major German parties:
CDU/CSU: unwilling to undertake major reforms
SPD: hypocritical and uninspiring
Die Linke: have some real nutjob politicians, but the more moderate reformist types are okayish
B90/Die Grünen: out of touch with the common people, no culture of open debate within the party
FDP: big-business lobbying organization
AfD: isolation won't get us anywhere

LOL, "too much" culture of open debate often constitutes one of the Greens' main problems compared to the other parties.

(Well, while I don't have a problem with it personally, it's a problem that the media tends to scandalize lack of conformity.)

Boris Palmer, mayor of Tübingen and Green party member, spoke out in favour of limiting the number of refugees in Germany; putting up fences on the external borders of the EU; and deporting violent refugees back to their home countries, even if they're from Syria. A fellow Green party member mentioned Palmer's views in a speech at a party conference and literally told him to "just shut up". Is that a culture of open debate? That's not what I imagine.