German legislative election, 2017
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  German legislative election, 2017
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Poll
Question: Who would you vote for?
#1
CDU/CSU
 
#2
SPD
 
#3
Die Linke (The Left)
 
#4
AfD
 
#5
FDP
 
#6
Greens
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 98

Author Topic: German legislative election, 2017  (Read 5576 times)
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CrabCake
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« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2017, 02:48:59 PM »

I always thought the Free Voters kind of occupied the same niche that Kretschmann's Greens occupy in BaWü. Is that fair?
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« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2017, 03:13:28 PM »

I always thought the Free Voters kind of occupied the same niche that Kretschmann's Greens occupy in BaWü. Is that fair?

Yes.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2017, 03:21:44 PM »

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Middle-aged Europe
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« Reply #78 on: July 19, 2017, 03:56:58 PM »
« Edited: July 19, 2017, 04:03:32 PM by Insert clever user name here »

Boris Palmer, mayor of Tübingen and Green party member, spoke out in favour of limiting the number of refugees in Germany; putting up fences on the external borders of the EU; and deporting violent refugees back to their home countries, even if they're from Syria. A fellow Green party member mentioned Palmer's views in a speech at a party conference and literally told him to "just shut up". Is that a culture of open debate? That's not what I imagine.

Telling Boris Palmer to "shut up" is excersing free speech. Just like Boris Palmer is excersing free speech when he expresses those views you mentioned above.

As a matter of fact, Canan Bayram - the one who told Boris Palmer to "shut up" - also heavily criticized her own party's lead candidates in the very same speech. She compared Cem Özdemir and Katrin Göring-Eckardt to "CDU local-level chairman". And this was the inaugural adress of the whole convention, held right before party chairman Özdemir held his speech. Now, explain to me how this constitutes "a lack of open debate"? Do you know any other political party where it is even conceivable that the federal chairman of the party is critized in this manner in the inaugural adress of the whole convention? Is it even conceivable that Angela Merkel is called a "Green party local-level chairwoman" in the inaugural adress of a CDU national convention? Do you really think this is "a lack of open debate"?? Wouldn't it be in fact a lack of open debate had Canan Bayram not held her speech at the convention?

Has anyone within the party ever actively attempted to prevent Boris Palmer to speak at a Green convention? Has anyone within the party ever attempted to expel Boris Palmer from the party? Has anyone ever attempted to oust Boris Palmer as mayor of Tübingen? The answer is no on all three accounts. He's free to say anything he wants. He just shouldn't accept that everybody praises him over it. There's a right to free speech, not a right to be praised for your opinions.

As a side note... Canan Bayram was of course pandering to her own base in a pretty shameless manner. Bayram currently tries to succeed Hans-Christian Ströbele in Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg as the only directly elected Green member of parliament. Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg is arguably one of the most left-wing electoral districts in the whole of Germany. And the Green voters in that district certainly constitute THE most left-wing Green voter base in any district anywhere. Harshly criticizing Boris Palmer scores points there. Harshly criticizing the lead candidates and chairmen of the national Green party also scores points there.

Canan Bayram was pandering to her base because in Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg it's either the Green Party or the Left Party who wins the district. Just like Boris Palmer is probably pandering to his base down in Baden-Württemberg with some of the remarks he usually makes. It's just politics. It's for that reason that I didn't really like Bayram's speech myself because it just came across like a opportunistic stunt to me. It was so obvious and transparent. Ah, well, and I didn't like it because I see no reason to unneccessarily trigger Boris Palmer. He just becomes totally insufferable for the next three months if you troll him like that. Of, course Bayram doesn't care about that either because she doesn't have to deal with Palmer directly up there in Kreuzberg.
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Sozialliberal
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« Reply #79 on: July 25, 2017, 10:14:45 AM »
« Edited: July 25, 2017, 11:23:16 AM by Sozialliberal »

I always thought the Free Voters kind of occupied the same niche that Kretschmann's Greens occupy in BaWü. Is that fair?

In terms of policy, they're pretty close. I'd say the key difference is that Kretschmann is basically Merkel's political twin, whereas the Free Voters have a populist anti-establishment side to them. A Merkel vs Kretschmann debate would probably be boring to watch because they have very similar personalities. A Merkel vs Aiwanger debate, on the other hand, I'd imagine to be entertaining because Aiwanger is quite argumentative and spirited.

By the way, if the Free Voters entered government in Bavaria, I'd be excited but would also be aware of the risk that they could lose too much of their anti-establishment appeal and subsequently drop out after the next election. However, I think Aiwanger is capable of negotiating a good coalition deal. The Free Voters say that they want to govern, but only if they can actually make a difference. I hope that would be enough to keep them in.

While Kretschmann does well both in rural and urban areas, the Free Voters usually receive their lowest shares of the vote in the big cities. I guess that's partly because Aiwanger, a farmer who is sometimes being teased about his heavy Lower Bavarian accent, is too much of a rural type to appeal to urban voters. Michael Piazolo, a professor for European studies who heads the Free Voters' Munich branch, is more of an urban type and I think highly of him, but he simply doesn't have the same charisma as Aiwanger.

The Free Voters do try to appeal to the urban electorate, too. For example, they played a key role in abolishing the tuition fees for higher education in Bavaria in 2013, which is their greatest accomplishment so far. Tuition fees are more of an urban issue because there are no universities out in the country. The Free Voters collected 27,048 signatures for a petition against the tuition fees, reaching the minimum number of 25,000 signatures prescribed by the Bavarian law on plebiscites. The next step, according to the law, was that at least 10% of the eligible voters sign the petition in their local town/village halls within a fixed 14-day period. 1,352,618 citizens (14.3% of the people eligible to vote) signed in. Then the matter had to be voted on in the Bavarian state parliament. The Free Voters, the SPD and the Greens voted against the tuition fees. The CSU, who initially were in favour of tuition fees, changed their mind after 14.3% of the eligible voters signed the petition and voted against them, too. The FDP was the only party that voted in favour of keeping the tuition fees. The tuition fees were subsequently abolished. If the majority of the state parliament had voted against the proposal, there would have been a referendum on this matter (as prescribed by the law). Aiwanger likes to say that the Free Voters have thereby accomplished more for the common good in the few years since they entered parliament than the Bavarian SPD has in the last 50 years.

A bit about the history of the Free Voters: The Free Voters party grew out of so called "free voter groups". Imagine someone wants to be involved in the local politics of their home town/village/district but doesn't want to join a political party for whatever reason. A typical reason would be disliking the top-down approach of the traditional parties. The electoral law allows forming voter groups, which don't have the legal status of parties, in local councils. The voter groups can therefore be viewed as a type of grassroots movement. Voter groups are especially successful in rural areas of southern Germany, where they're sometimes even the largest groups in the local councils. Some voter groups started to think about participating in state elections, too. That was mainly because they thought that the local authorities are underfunded and have too little decision-making power. However, the crux of the matter is that you can't take part in state elections as a voter group. You need to have the legal status of a party to do that. Many local politicians who are members of voter groups are opposed to the idea of founding a party to take part in state elections. After all, they joined a voter group because they didn't want party politics in the first place. As far as I know, the first time a party founded by voter groups took part in a state election was in Rhineland-Palatinate in 1987. They used the name "Free Voter Group". That's why politicians of the Free Voters party usually have some experience in local politics. Aiwanger started in local politics, too.



Boris Palmer, mayor of Tübingen and Green party member, spoke out in favour of limiting the number of refugees in Germany; putting up fences on the external borders of the EU; and deporting violent refugees back to their home countries, even if they're from Syria. A fellow Green party member mentioned Palmer's views in a speech at a party conference and literally told him to "just shut up". Is that a culture of open debate? That's not what I imagine.

Telling Boris Palmer to "shut up" is excersing free speech. Just like Boris Palmer is excersing free speech when he expresses those views you mentioned above.

As a matter of fact, Canan Bayram - the one who told Boris Palmer to "shut up" - also heavily criticized her own party's lead candidates in the very same speech. She compared Cem Özdemir and Katrin Göring-Eckardt to "CDU local-level chairman". And this was the inaugural adress of the whole convention, held right before party chairman Özdemir held his speech. Now, explain to me how this constitutes "a lack of open debate"? Do you know any other political party where it is even conceivable that the federal chairman of the party is critized in this manner in the inaugural adress of the whole convention? Is it even conceivable that Angela Merkel is called a "Green party local-level chairwoman" in the inaugural adress of a CDU national convention? Do you really think this is "a lack of open debate"?? Wouldn't it be in fact a lack of open debate had Canan Bayram not held her speech at the convention?

Has anyone within the party ever actively attempted to prevent Boris Palmer to speak at a Green convention? Has anyone within the party ever attempted to expel Boris Palmer from the party? Has anyone ever attempted to oust Boris Palmer as mayor of Tübingen? The answer is no on all three accounts. He's free to say anything he wants. He just shouldn't accept that everybody praises him over it. There's a right to free speech, not a right to be praised for your opinions.

As a side note... Canan Bayram was of course pandering to her own base in a pretty shameless manner. Bayram currently tries to succeed Hans-Christian Ströbele in Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg as the only directly elected Green member of parliament. Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg is arguably one of the most left-wing electoral districts in the whole of Germany. And the Green voters in that district certainly constitute THE most left-wing Green voter base in any district anywhere. Harshly criticizing Boris Palmer scores points there. Harshly criticizing the lead candidates and chairmen of the national Green party also scores points there.

Canan Bayram was pandering to her base because in Friedrichshain-Kreuzberg it's either the Green Party or the Left Party who wins the district. Just like Boris Palmer is probably pandering to his base down in Baden-Württemberg with some of the remarks he usually makes. It's just politics. It's for that reason that I didn't really like Bayram's speech myself because it just came across like a opportunistic stunt to me. It was so obvious and transparent. Ah, well, and I didn't like it because I see no reason to unneccessarily trigger Boris Palmer. He just becomes totally insufferable for the next three months if you troll him like that. Of, course Bayram doesn't care about that either because she doesn't have to deal with Palmer directly up there in Kreuzberg.

Thanks for the background info. Well, I wrote about a culture of open debate. In my opinion, telling someone to shut up in a speech is uncultured. I can disagree with somebody and still treat them with respect.
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