James Madison v. Alexander Hamilton
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  James Madison v. Alexander Hamilton
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#1
James Madison(D)
 
#2
James Madison(R)
 
#3
James Madison(I)
 
#4
James Madison(L)
 
#5
James Madison(G/S/C/O)
 
#6
Alexander Hamilton(D)
 
#7
Alexander Hamilton(R)
 
#8
Alexander Hamilton(I)
 
#9
Alexander Hamilton(L)
 
#10
Alexander Hamilton(G/S/O)
 
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Author Topic: James Madison v. Alexander Hamilton  (Read 951 times)
Kingpoleon
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« on: June 20, 2017, 12:14:06 PM »

I want to see the party breakdown on this.
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SWE
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2017, 12:16:23 PM »

Probably Hamilton, but I dislike both pretty much equally.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 12:38:22 PM »

I like both, but easily Hamilton (R).  My appreciation for Madison comes mostly from being interested in his personal life as a little kid, and before I was overly political he was my "favorite President."  I even dressed as him for Halloween when I was 7 or 8, LOLOL.  I think most people thought I was Captain Hook.

Hamilton is one of my favorite Founding Fathers, and while Madison is 1,000 times better than his pal Jefferson, he is a bit too agrarian (which, despite the 20th Century association of small government and states' rights with "conservatism," would have made his economic goals and ideas completely at odds with the GOP, IMO) for my taste, and the sympathy toward the slave power was unfortunate.  I try not to judge pre-1840s politicians on the slavery issue THAT much, but it can't be overlooked either.
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Mr. Smith
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2017, 12:41:49 PM »
« Edited: June 20, 2017, 01:38:13 PM by L.D. Smith »

Madison by a hair. Even with the 1812 screw-up that made Clinton a better choice.
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vanguard96
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2017, 01:01:08 PM »

Madison as the first amendment architect is a plus. He cut taxes as he inherited a surplus from Jefferson and continued largely in his tradition. He vetoed the creation of the 2nd National Bank and the Bonus Bill of 1817 which was based on Congress' broad interpretation of the spending as spelled out in the Constitution.

Hamilton as a Federalist who tried to create nationalized systems was the opposition. It's a natural he's the one the big government types like. He accepted the idea of president for life.

Easy choice.
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Blue3
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2017, 01:31:06 PM »

Madison was pretty incompetent and indecisive.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2017, 02:43:56 PM »

#NeverHamilton
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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2017, 02:49:37 PM »

Virginia dynasty
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Paul Weller
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2017, 03:26:13 PM »

Alexander Hamilton>James Madison
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2017, 03:27:47 PM »

Seriously, with these polls it is way more useful if you breaking down by placement on the political spectrum (preferably with binary left and right options) rather than partisan ID.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 04:00:08 PM »

Seriously, with these polls it is way more useful if you breaking down by placement on the political spectrum (preferably with binary left and right options) rather than partisan ID.

I imagine that will lead to a lot of arguing about what those binary options "mean."  I mean, I think it's clear as day that Hamilton represented the "binary right" of his time, but surely someone will disagree.
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TDAS04
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 05:22:51 PM »

Madison was better than both Hamilton and Jefferson. 
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2017, 06:11:00 PM »

I'll take democracy and the Bill of Rights over quasi-monarchism and the Alien & Sedition Acts, thanks. Going to war in 1812 was a bad decision, but considering Hamilton wanted an equally unnecessary war in 1798, I'd say the two break even on the "bad foreign policy decision" front.

Hamilton as a Federalist who tried to create nationalized systems was the opposition. It's a natural he's the one the big government types like.
I'd be careful about making that assumption. As a general rule of thumb, policies of centralization are adopted as a means to an end, not as ends in and of themselves. This, after all, is why Jefferson adopted many Hamiltonian interpretations of the Constitution upon assuming office, why John C. Calhoun abandoned his early nationalistic views for a doctrine of nullification, and why Southerners saw no contradiction in supporting both the Fugitive Slave Act and states' rights. For Hamilton and his allies, the strength of the central government served to guarantee the prosperity of the business and financial interests, a goal modern-day liberals hardly share.
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MAINEiac4434
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2017, 12:27:28 PM »

Where's the musical Madison, huh?
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Torie
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 04:40:08 PM »

Hamilton by a country mile, and one reason, little known, is Madison's role in keeping slavery legal in the US at the one moment when it might have been abolished.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2017, 05:38:37 PM »

Hamilton by a country mile, and one reason, little known, is Madison's role in keeping slavery legal in the US at the one moment when it might have been abolished.
Madison also literally kept the Federalists form establishing a hereditary Senate, despite that being to his own interests, but whatever.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2017, 08:16:06 PM »

Seriously, with these polls it is way more useful if you breaking down by placement on the political spectrum (preferably with binary left and right options) rather than partisan ID.

I imagine that will lead to a lot of arguing about what those binary options "mean."  I mean, I think it's clear as day that Hamilton represented the "binary right" of his time, but surely someone will disagree.

You misunderstood me. I mean one's personal identification on the scale - if there is a tendency for left wingers to vote one way, we can deduce something about modern leftism and its relationship with Hamilton etc
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MAINEiac4434
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2017, 08:17:57 PM »

Hamilton by a country mile, and one reason, little known, is Madison's role in keeping slavery legal in the US at the one moment when it might have been abolished.
Madison also literally kept the Federalists form establishing a hereditary Senate, despite that being to his own interests, but whatever.
Sorry kingpo, but slavery is much worse than a hereditary senate.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2017, 09:07:07 PM »

Hamilton by a country mile, and one reason, little known, is Madison's role in keeping slavery legal in the US at the one moment when it might have been abolished.
According to that article, though, it's not clear anything would have come of this, besides the southern states splitting off from the Union (and thus preserving slavery, in practice, for several more decades than in original history). This is the tricky thing about the politics of slavery in the Early Republic: yes, the Northern states had the votes to abolish slavery on paper, but prior to 1850 they lacked the power to impose abolition by the bayonet, which was the only way it was ever going to happen. If your first priority is to expunge the federal government of culpability, then this isn't an issue, but if you're motivated by a desire to actually end slavery, it makes things considerably more complicated.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2017, 09:22:21 PM »

Overall, I'm leaning towards Madison.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2017, 11:42:44 PM »

Hamilton by a country mile, and one reason, little known, is Madison's role in keeping slavery legal in the US at the one moment when it might have been abolished.
Madison also literally kept the Federalists form establishing a hereditary Senate, despite that being to his own interests, but whatever.
Sorry kingpo, but slavery is much worse than a hereditary senate.
Truman's post also addresses the fact that if Madison had agreed, everything south of Virginia would have seceded, as well as probably most if not all of Virginia.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2017, 11:12:43 AM »

Hamilton by a country mile, and one reason, little known, is Madison's role in keeping slavery legal in the US at the one moment when it might have been abolished.
Madison also literally kept the Federalists form establishing a hereditary Senate, despite that being to his own interests, but whatever.
Sorry kingpo, but slavery is much worse than a hereditary senate.

The First Party System parties had no meaningful policy difference on slavery.
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Torie
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2017, 09:16:05 AM »

Hamilton by a country mile, and one reason, little known, is Madison's role in keeping slavery legal in the US at the one moment when it might have been abolished.
According to that article, though, it's not clear anything would have come of this, besides the southern states splitting off from the Union (and thus preserving slavery, in practice, for several more decades than in original history). This is the tricky thing about the politics of slavery in the Early Republic: yes, the Northern states had the votes to abolish slavery on paper, but prior to 1850 they lacked the power to impose abolition by the bayonet, which was the only way it was ever going to happen. If your first priority is to expunge the federal government of culpability, then this isn't an issue, but if you're motivated by a desire to actually end slavery, it makes things considerably more complicated.

Virginia and NC would probably not have split off, along with Maryland and Delaware, and that might have dissuaded Georgia and SC going down that road. That is the key point. At the time, slavery was not so deeply ingrained into the Southern economy prior to the cotton gin, and most of the deep south had not been taken from the Native Americans yet, to make it "safe" for slavery.
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