Campus Rape Policies Get a New Look as the Accused Get DeVos's Ear (NYTimes)

[Famous Mortimer]

Those whose fingers begin flailing hysterically against their keyboards whenever talk turns to whether the accused are getting a raw deal in regards to rape accusations are proving to the world that they don't actually care about justice, social problems, or rape itself. It's just a reflex for self-preservation. The only "that could be me" they can process is being the one accused of rape. And therefore that is what matters to them, purely. But in much the same way you don't want to be accused of rape, you probably also don't want to be the one coming to the defense exclusively of those accused of rape. You look really gross really quickly, to everyone.

There's probably a discussion worth having about all of this but I doubt it's ever going to happen here.

Rape is the only crime for which people are proposing doing away with the presumption of innocence. It produces a unique kind of response online because it is unique in that position. I don't see how that proves people concerned about preserving the presumption of innocence are somehow betraying their malevolence. They would have the same reaction and be just as concerned if people were talking about doing away with the presumption of innocence for theft or libel, it's just that no one is proposing that.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Isn't it odd how you guys only defend people accused of rape? Hmmmmmm?"

No, it's not odd at all. People accused of rape are the only people that activists want to take away the presumption of innocence for.

I would also defend the presumption of innocence for anyone accused of any crime, it's just that with any other crime besides rape, they don't need it. No one supports taking away the presumption of innocence for anyone else, if they propose that for any other crime besides rape, it's universally recognized as insane.

[dead0man]

They ain't coming back to defend themselves Mortimer.  They made their drive by post, got that feeling of superiority they were looking for, and then left.  I suppose they might come back to see who patted them on the back for their strong support for feminism, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Attorney General, LGC Speaker, and Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

Obama should have reformed how the military justice system handles rape, where there were real problems, and where there was bipartisan support for reform, but he didn't. Instead he pushed campus reform instead, with disastrous consequences. Option one would have involved actually pushing back against the military bureaucracy, whereas option two just involved dropping the hammer on universities.

[Badger]

The consulting with Corey Mock is a wise thing considering his story is Exhibit A for all that's wrong in the pseudo-judicial framework campuses set up devoid of anything remotely approaching due process or confrontation rights.

However, appointing someone in charge of the division in charge of monitoring such assaults whom is on record saying that 90% of campus assaults derive merely from regrets after sobering up the next day, and further seeking the input of bona-fide "mens rights" nutcakes who question the fundamental existence of domestic assault, is--per usual for this Administration--totally nucking futs.

[tik 🪀✨]

Rape is the only crime for which people are proposing doing away with the presumption of innocence. It produces a unique kind of response online because it is unique in that position. I don't see how that proves people concerned about preserving the presumption of innocence are somehow betraying their malevolence. They would have the same reaction and be just as concerned if people were talking about doing away with the presumption of innocence for theft or libel, it's just that no one is proposing that.

Recently here a woman enrolled with Australia Defense Force Academy accused a fellow cadet of raping her. He was found not guilty. I only found out about it at this point, and I was kind of amazed during the news reports that the accused man was named but the woman was not (although after 5 seconds of thought you can work out why things are done this way, whether or not it's good is up to you)

The accuser was questioned for two days straight - text messages and all social interactions held to the highest degree of scrutiny. Her story held up and examined in front of family, loved ones, the accused, the jury, media, all of these public officials. The story of her.. rape. Recounted in excruciating detail. By her. Over and over.

So, you know.. the court decided she was lying. And that's fine, especially if it's correct. I do not need to be told about how it's unfair for men. Believe me, when these things come up for a public discussion, that's all you hear because there is this cacophony of men falling over themselves to scream about injustice. I get it, I get that this is a scary thing and it's not fair that he was named and his future is in question forever and there is an assumption of guilt from the start. I.. never said I was cool with that.

What bothers me is that mostly the ones who speak up don't give a hint of a sh**t about women (or men for that matter) who have had the bravery to take the enormous risk of coming forward. There is no thought for having to sit in front of a people recounting everything leading up to, during, and after your rape. An investigation into such a horrifying act that could have lasted years. The stress and agony on the other side. You never hear anyone on the other side. It's always about you and how it's unfair. It's missing the whole picture in a way that makes my skin crawl. And I don't even necessarily disagree that reforms are needed, but you know.. sorry for being a self-righteous asshole!

[tik 🪀✨]

They ain't coming back to defend themselves Mortimer.  They made their drive by post, got that feeling of superiority they were looking for, and then left.  I suppose they might come back to see who patted them on the back for their strong support for feminism, but I wouldn't count on it.

"They" (well played!) take for granted that at tHe tOXiC pLaCe you get a convenient notification when someone has quoted you in a thread. Sorry friend!

[Devout Centrist]

They ain't coming back to defend themselves Mortimer.  They made their drive by post, got that feeling of superiority they were looking for, and then left.  I suppose they might come back to see who patted them on the back for their strong support for feminism, but I wouldn't count on it.

Yeah, that's it buddy. Not your terrible takes.

[dead0man]

Right, that "terrible take" that the majority agrees with.  The "terrible take" that asks for people to actually be found guilty of a crime before they are punished.  Compared to your take of.....ahhh, just bashing, no substance.

[MasterJedi]

Right, that "terrible take" that the majority agrees with.  The "terrible take" that asks for people to actually be found guilty of a crime before they are punished.  Compared to your take of.....ahhh, just bashing, no substance.

That's how it's supposed to be but everyone really is guilty until proven innocent. That's why all the people I saw who were cheering the prison let a jail get up to 109 and that they should just let the people die because they're criminals. Mind you it's a jail and not a prison so they're not even convicted. The first thought most people seem to have if someone is accused of any crime is "kill them".

[Santander]

Mind you it's a jail and not a prison so they're not even convicted. The first thought most people seem to have if someone is accused of any crime is "kill them".

Jails have a mix of people accused of crimes and convicts serving <1 year sentences.

[KingSweden]

Rape is the only crime for which people are proposing doing away with the presumption of innocence. It produces a unique kind of response online because it is unique in that position. I don't see how that proves people concerned about preserving the presumption of innocence are somehow betraying their malevolence. They would have the same reaction and be just as concerned if people were talking about doing away with the presumption of innocence for theft or libel, it's just that no one is proposing that.

Recently here a woman enrolled with Australia Defense Force Academy accused a fellow cadet of raping her. He was found not guilty. I only found out about it at this point, and I was kind of amazed during the news reports that the accused man was named but the woman was not (although after 5 seconds of thought you can work out why things are done this way, whether or not it's good is up to you)

The accuser was questioned for two days straight - text messages and all social interactions held to the highest degree of scrutiny. Her story held up and examined in front of family, loved ones, the accused, the jury, media, all of these public officials. The story of her.. rape. Recounted in excruciating detail. By her. Over and over.

So, you know.. the court decided she was lying. And that's fine, especially if it's correct. I do not need to be told about how it's unfair for men. Believe me, when these things come up for a public discussion, that's all you hear because there is this cacophony of men falling over themselves to scream about injustice. I get it, I get that this is a scary thing and it's not fair that he was named and his future is in question forever and there is an assumption of guilt from the start. I.. never said I was cool with that.

What bothers me is that mostly the ones who speak up don't give a hint of a sh**t about women (or men for that matter) who have had the bravery to take the enormous risk of coming forward. There is no thought for having to sit in front of a people recounting everything leading up to, during, and after your rape. An investigation into such a horrifying act that could have lasted years. The stress and agony on the other side. You never hear anyone on the other side. It's always about you and how it's unfair. It's missing the whole picture in a way that makes my skin crawl. And I don't even necessarily disagree that reforms are needed, but you know.. sorry for being a self-righteous asshole!

Women who come forward about their rapes or sexual assaults are incredibly brave people, and their accusations deserve a serious and thorough investigation by the police and, if an indictment against the accused perpetrator is recommended and handed down, they both are owed and entitled to their day in court. Rape is a rung below murder on the scale of crimes that tear at the health and cohesion of a society, and both of these crimes deserve to be treated with the utmost seriousness.

There are, for that reason, many of us who are skeptical that university deans/professors who were randomly appointed to a "arbitration panel" or "tribunal board" or what have you, have the knowledge, resources, experience and impartiality to properly weigh such accusations. There are cases, such as at Baylor University, where case after case of reported sexual assault by football athletes were swept under the rug. Many college counselors have failed to advise victims to go to the police or properly spell out their options. Which is no surprise, they really aren't qualified to do so.

This isn't just an issue where the "accused" gets a raw deal - the victims, or alleged victims, are just as often if not more often subject to the whims of the university's Title IX office. This is not about men flailing over how rape accusations are unfair because of the feels. Title IX standards as enforced by universities are vague, unevenly instituted and fail to meet reasonable doubt standards used in court. Why should non-legal entities use a lesser standard than a court of law?

But bluntly - we should treat and take rape accusations seriously, and I remain very unconvinced that the DoE's Title IX preponderance standards make it easier to do that.