Can Mueller oust Trump?
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  Can Mueller oust Trump?
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Author Topic: Can Mueller oust Trump?  (Read 697 times)
jman123
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« on: July 20, 2017, 11:03:05 AM »

Does Muller have the power to oust Trump from the presidency?
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Nyvin
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 11:24:06 AM »

Of course not.
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adrac
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 11:53:51 AM »

The most he can do is give congress a long list of reasons to do so themselves.
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GeorgiaModerate
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 11:55:19 AM »


The President can only be ousted by Congress (impeachment by a majority of the House followed by conviction by 2/3 of the Senate), or by the VP and a majority of cabinet officers via the procedure defined in the 25th Amendment (and even that one is a temporary measure).
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GeorgiaModerate
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 12:06:25 PM »


The President can only be ousted by Congress (impeachment by a majority of the House followed by conviction by 2/3 of the Senate), or by the VP and a majority of cabinet officers via the procedure defined in the 25th Amendment (and even that one is a temporary measure).

That is meant for a situation where the president is extremely sick, like Wilson's stroke in 1919.  The president can immediately challenge it and it requires a 2/3rds vote of both houses of congress to sustain the removal from power.


Yes, that's why I wrote that it's a temporary measure.
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Badger
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2017, 12:16:45 PM »

If one interprets this question is whether or not he has the Constitutional and legal authority to oust Trump, then obviously the answer is no. If one takes this question as I THINK it was intended to ask whether or not his investigatory Powers could ultimately lead to Trump's downfall, that I think the answer is a distinct possible, especially considering he's expanding it to Trump's notoriously Beyond sketchy personal financial dealings, and the inevitable connections to Russia.
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HAnnA MArin County
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 12:33:41 PM »

Even if he could oust the Dear Leader, the Republicans wouldn't allow it to happen. If this were Hillary Clinton being investigated, well the Republicans would have already impeached her ten times by now.
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2017, 12:40:07 PM »

It is not established whether the President can be indicted for a crime without first being impeached and removed. Arguably, the President might have sovereign immunity while President. The issue is not heavily litigated. However, the U.S. typically only applies sovereign immunity to government entities themselves and officials acting in their official capacity (which would not cover potential illegal behavior before Trump became President but would cover, e.g., firing Comey). Thus, it is likely that the President does not have sovereign immunity and at least in theory can be indicted and prosecuted without an impeachment.

Even if the President is indicted, he would not be automatically removed (just like any other politician). Typically, politicians resign after being indicted, but this is not always the case and not required by law. Following the indictment, he would eventually go on trial in an ordinary criminal court and, if convicted, potentially go to prison. I don't think there are any examples of a U.S. politician continuing in office from prison, but I'd be glad to be corrected. However, there is still nothing that would require the President to be removed merely because he was imprisoned. An imprisoned President would surely also potentially be subject to Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, whereby the Vice President and a majority of the executive officers could declare the President unable to discharge his powers as President and have the Vice President replace him as President. However, removal under the 25th Amendment is not automatic on imprisonment (or any other impairment short of death).

There is also the matter of pardons. It is unclear whether the President's pardon power extends to himself. It is certainly possible that the President could pardon himself, and a court may hold that to be a constitutional exercise of his office.

So, the short answer is that Mueller cannot remove Trump on his own without action by Trump himself (to resign), by Pence and the Cabinet (to remove Trump under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment) or by Congress (to impeach and remove Trump), although Mueller may be able to send him to prison (with a proper court verdict, etc.).
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Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2017, 12:44:31 PM »

Does Muller have the power to oust Trump from the presidency?

Legally (or technically, if you prefer) the answer is a clear No. He can refer his finding to Congress or possibly a prosecutor, and maybe make a recommendation.

Practically, particularly if he does find evidence of wrongdoing, he can destroy Trump's presidency. By leaking the evidence, if more above-board means fail and the GOP refuses to impeach him. Whether or not he would, I don't know.
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GeorgiaModerate
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2017, 01:22:24 PM »

It is not established whether the President can be indicted for a crime without first being impeached and removed. Arguably, the President might have sovereign immunity while President. The issue is not heavily litigated. However, the U.S. typically only applies sovereign immunity to government entities themselves and officials acting in their official capacity (which would not cover potential illegal behavior before Trump became President but would cover, e.g., firing Comey). Thus, it is likely that the President does not have sovereign immunity and at least in theory can be indicted and prosecuted without an impeachment.

Even if the President is indicted, he would not be automatically removed (just like any other politician). Typically, politicians resign after being indicted, but this is not always the case and not required by law. Following the indictment, he would eventually go on trial in an ordinary criminal court and, if convicted, potentially go to prison. I don't think there are any examples of a U.S. politician continuing in office from prison, but I'd be glad to be corrected. However, there is still nothing that would require the President to be removed merely because he was imprisoned. An imprisoned President would surely also potentially be subject to Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, whereby the Vice President and a majority of the executive officers could declare the President unable to discharge his powers as President and have the Vice President replace him as President. However, removal under the 25th Amendment is not automatic on imprisonment (or any other impairment short of death).

There is also the matter of pardons. It is unclear whether the President's pardon power extends to himself. It is certainly possible that the President could pardon himself, and a court may hold that to be a constitutional exercise of his office.

So, the short answer is that Mueller cannot remove Trump on his own without action by Trump himself (to resign), by Pence and the Cabinet (to remove Trump under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment) or by Congress (to impeach and remove Trump), although Mueller may be able to send him to prison (with a proper court verdict, etc.).

The DOJ Office of Legal Counsel issued an opinion that the President cannot pardon himself: https://www.justice.gov/file/20856/download.

The date on this is interesting: August 5, 1974 -- three days before Nixon resigned.
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Badger
badger
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2017, 04:26:30 PM »

It is not established whether the President can be indicted for a crime without first being impeached and removed. Arguably, the President might have sovereign immunity while President. The issue is not heavily litigated. However, the U.S. typically only applies sovereign immunity to government entities themselves and officials acting in their official capacity (which would not cover potential illegal behavior before Trump became President but would cover, e.g., firing Comey). Thus, it is likely that the President does not have sovereign immunity and at least in theory can be indicted and prosecuted without an impeachment.

Even if the President is indicted, he would not be automatically removed (just like any other politician). Typically, politicians resign after being indicted, but this is not always the case and not required by law. Following the indictment, he would eventually go on trial in an ordinary criminal court and, if convicted, potentially go to prison. I don't think there are any examples of a U.S. politician continuing in office from prison, but I'd be glad to be corrected. However, there is still nothing that would require the President to be removed merely because he was imprisoned. An imprisoned President would surely also potentially be subject to Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, whereby the Vice President and a majority of the executive officers could declare the President unable to discharge his powers as President and have the Vice President replace him as President. However, removal under the 25th Amendment is not automatic on imprisonment (or any other impairment short of death).

There is also the matter of pardons. It is unclear whether the President's pardon power extends to himself. It is certainly possible that the President could pardon himself, and a court may hold that to be a constitutional exercise of his office.

So, the short answer is that Mueller cannot remove Trump on his own without action by Trump himself (to resign), by Pence and the Cabinet (to remove Trump under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment) or by Congress (to impeach and remove Trump), although Mueller may be able to send him to prison (with a proper court verdict, etc.).

The DOJ Office of Legal Counsel issued an opinion that the President cannot pardon himself: https://www.justice.gov/file/20856/download.

The date on this is interesting: August 5, 1974 -- three days before Nixon resigned.

Hardly coincidental
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Dr Oz Lost Party!
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2017, 05:28:02 PM »

Legally? No, that's solely congress' job. What he can do is find evidence of obstruction of justice and Russian collusion, then present it to the committee which could set off a chain reaction that could eventually lead to his removal from office.
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Hermit For Peace
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2017, 07:13:49 PM »

Even if he could oust the Dear Leader, the Republicans wouldn't allow it to happen. If this were Hillary Clinton being investigated, well the Republicans would have already impeached her ten times by now.

Ain't that the unfortunate truth. They're good at negatives and saying no, but not so good at getting things done in a positive way that benefit the country as a whole. How did we allow our politics come to this?
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Tintrlvr
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2017, 07:14:49 PM »

It is not established whether the President can be indicted for a crime without first being impeached and removed. Arguably, the President might have sovereign immunity while President. The issue is not heavily litigated. However, the U.S. typically only applies sovereign immunity to government entities themselves and officials acting in their official capacity (which would not cover potential illegal behavior before Trump became President but would cover, e.g., firing Comey). Thus, it is likely that the President does not have sovereign immunity and at least in theory can be indicted and prosecuted without an impeachment.

Even if the President is indicted, he would not be automatically removed (just like any other politician). Typically, politicians resign after being indicted, but this is not always the case and not required by law. Following the indictment, he would eventually go on trial in an ordinary criminal court and, if convicted, potentially go to prison. I don't think there are any examples of a U.S. politician continuing in office from prison, but I'd be glad to be corrected. However, there is still nothing that would require the President to be removed merely because he was imprisoned. An imprisoned President would surely also potentially be subject to Section 4 of the 25th Amendment, whereby the Vice President and a majority of the executive officers could declare the President unable to discharge his powers as President and have the Vice President replace him as President. However, removal under the 25th Amendment is not automatic on imprisonment (or any other impairment short of death).

There is also the matter of pardons. It is unclear whether the President's pardon power extends to himself. It is certainly possible that the President could pardon himself, and a court may hold that to be a constitutional exercise of his office.

So, the short answer is that Mueller cannot remove Trump on his own without action by Trump himself (to resign), by Pence and the Cabinet (to remove Trump under Section 4 of the 25th Amendment) or by Congress (to impeach and remove Trump), although Mueller may be able to send him to prison (with a proper court verdict, etc.).

The DOJ Office of Legal Counsel issued an opinion that the President cannot pardon himself: https://www.justice.gov/file/20856/download.

The date on this is interesting: August 5, 1974 -- three days before Nixon resigned.

While this would certainly be relevant, it is not dispositive. And I think probably wrong.
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2017, 09:02:36 PM »

He cannot oust the President, but he can weaken the President.

Prepare yourselves for a military coup.
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