North Korea Mega Thread

[bilaps]

There was another launch across Japan territory of intermidiate missile. I honestly think China is just playing with Trump right now. You wanna be tough or us, here, have it.

[TheSaint250]

Why is Trump's red line not a bigger deal than Obama's? Does nobody remember the 'fire and fury' threat he made last month and he did nothing...

Personally I'm happy that neither of them took it seriously. Otherwise, we'd be at war with Syria and North Korea.

[Crumpets]

[Santander]

This is not an appropriate response.

[Crumpets]

-cut for size-

This last test was with an IRBM not an ICBM and likely with a lofted trajectory. Memes like this are dumb and underestimate NK capabilities. The actual ranges are below:

-cut for size-

In 33 years of North Korea's nuclear missile program, the farthest launch they have achieved is 3,700 km, with a theoretical maximum range of ~7,500 km. I could post a map of all of the world with the caption "super duper super weapon mega-scary range (estimated, not successfully tested)," and it would be equally useful to formulating a policy towards North Korea as either the map you posted or the meme I posted.

As it currently stands, South Korea has not changed its defensive posture re: North Korea, neither has Russia or China. Memes like mine are dumb, but maps like yours are blatant scaremongering, trying to get Americans enthusiastic for another unnecessary war.

Take for example:


Now, do you expect this was published to A) prepare missile defenses, and educate people of the proper terminology of which missiles would likely hit which targets or B) AAAHHHHH scary map with places I've heard of on it! We need to do take care of evil mustache dude before those circles reach places I care about!

[The Mikado]

As Saddam showed in the First Gulf War...he did, in fact, have missiles that had a pretty extensive reach. They were borderline useless due to the lack of a harmful payload.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The NK regime is far more unstable and risk-taking than Saddam's ever was. NK does have a viable chemical, biological,  and advanced nuclear program. Iraq had at best one or two of those, nuclear was not one of them as we've seen. To ignore NK, even in the slightest, is to be naive to the implications for the region. Japan could rearm, SK could go nuclear, China would be even more brazen if those were to occur, thus dragging the US in even more to deescalate.

If we do go to war against NK, it will be necessary because they would have attacked the US, SK, or Japan and it would be to wipe out future offensive capabilities. Don't act like NK is so innocent in all of this or that everyone that doesn't agree with your view is a neocon.

My fear, which certainly seems to be the fear of a number of others as well, is that the deplorable madman in the White House will launch a punitive/preventative war (crime) on North Korea. Maybe because of what Alex Jones said, or maybe because his brief writer was new and didn't include his name ten times in every paragraph, or maybe because some war- hungry  advisor shows him some pictures of pre-war Korean girls in bikinis.


Yes, if the North Korea actually attacks the US, all bets are off and war becomes a much less deplorable (but still disastrous) endeavor. But there's not some bright line made of glass labeled Do Not Break Unless You Want To Get Nuked. What if the US thinks NK is attacking, but it's just another provocative test? What if we shoot down a North Korean missile that isn't aimed at anyone? What if there's an air or sea encounter or incident?

If I were an enemy of the US, and no friend to any Koreans, it might be tempting to attack a US ship near North Korea and see what happened. Recent events have shown us how vulnerable US warships are to collisions with merchant vessels. Escalation is a tense and tricky business, and there has never been anyone in the White House less suited to handling it than Deranged Donald.

[pbrower2a]

-cut for size-

This last test was with an IRBM not an ICBM and likely with a lofted trajectory. Memes like this are dumb and underestimate NK capabilities. The actual ranges are below:

-cut for size-

In 33 years of North Korea's nuclear missile program, the farthest launch they have achieved is 3,700 km, with a theoretical maximum range of ~7,500 km. I could post a map of all of the world with the caption "super duper super weapon mega-scary range (estimated, not successfully tested)," and it would be equally useful to formulating a policy towards North Korea as either the map you posted or the meme I posted.

As it currently stands, South Korea has not changed its defensive posture re: North Korea, neither has Russia or China. Memes like mine are dumb, but maps like yours are blatant scaremongering, trying to get Americans enthusiastic for another unnecessary war.

Take for example:


Now, do you expect this was published to A) prepare missile defenses, and educate people of the proper terminology of which missiles would likely hit which targets or B) AAAHHHHH scary map with places I've heard of on it! We need to do take care of evil mustache dude before those circles reach places I care about!

So long as the Iran-Iraq war was going on , the world could largely ignore the Iraqi missile program. Once Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and fired some missiles at Israel as a diversion (one way to offend the USA), the missile program became an issue.

I remember an issue of Scientific American in which the range of missiles was shown for countries that possessed them -- just before Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. The first thing that I noticed was that much of the range of Iraqi missiles included a significant part of the Soviet Union. It should not be surprising that President Gorbachev became as hostile as anyone toward an Iraqi missile program once Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait.     

[BudgieForce]

Im listening to Trump talk about North Korea at the UN and I cant say I entirely hate it. He's just saying what we all know to be true, If North Korea attacks South Korea or Japan(or the USA for that matter) they will be destroyed. Its not a shocking development like the media is making it out to be.

[MasterJedi]

Im listening to Trump talk about North Korea at the UN and I cant say I entirely hate it. He's just saying what we all know to be true, If North Korea attacks South Korea or Japan(or the USA for that matter) they will be destroyed. Its not a shocking development like the media is making it out to be.

Because most other Presidents haven't tried to have a dick waiving competition like Trumpy started.

[BudgieForce]

Im listening to Trump talk about North Korea at the UN and I cant say I entirely hate it. He's just saying what we all know to be true, If North Korea attacks South Korea or Japan(or the USA for that matter) they will be destroyed. Its not a shocking development like the media is making it out to be.

Because most other Presidents haven't tried to have a dick waiving competition like Trumpy started.

I get that, but its not like it hurts us in this instance. North Korea has had its dick out for decades, whats wrong with showing them ours is much, much bigger?

[The Mikado]

Important article: https://www.usip.org/publications/2017/09/chinas-evolving-north-korea-strategy

"China announced in 2016 that it would create a force dedicated to nuclear emergencies, including responding to nuclear accidents in foreign countries.9 Chinese military officers have explicitly stated that contingency plans are in place for a mission to secure DPRK nuclear weapons and fissile material, and that they involve moving Peoples Liberation Army (PLA) troops at least one hundred kilometers into North Korean territory.10"

This is a key factor in any decision the US makes. If we do an offensive against NK, the chances are high that the Chinese push south to stabilize the border. As they push south, the risk of air sorties hitting PLA soldiers are high (so the US would need to establish a deconfliction zone/ADIZ with them), as well as the possibility that any land the PLA secures, China will claim, similar to the grabs by the Soviet Union during and following WW2.

It's immensely complicated.

I don't think China wants to incorporate any N. Korean land in the aftermath of the war. China's #2 goal (after the #1 goal of preventing unification) is to prevent a flood of N. Korean refugees into China. Making N. Korea part of China makes those people already there.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Great statements re NK by Trump at the UN. The UN needs to do "much more" as Trump put it and I agree.

Vacuous stupidity is vacuous stupidity. Putting the foolish and dangerous words, "something must be done!" into even fewer syllables is no accomplishment, save in the annals of idiocy.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Great statements re NK by Trump at the UN. The UN needs to do "much more" as Trump put it and I agree.

Vacuous stupidity is vacuous stupidity. Putting the foolish and dangerous words, "something must be done!" into even fewer syllables is no accomplishment, save in the annals of idiocy.

The annals of idiocy is doing nothing of substance for close the thirty years

Stop right there. Typical right wing nonsense. Ignore the diplomatic success that was wrecked by Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework

And then start frothing about how essential bombing is.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/910577104001077248

58% of US adults favour military action against North Korea, 82/37 R/D.

[Kamala]

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/910577104001077248

58% of US adults favour military action against North Korea, 82/37 R/D.

Well, that's awful.

[GoTfan]

Great statements re NK by Trump at the UN. The UN needs to do "much more" as Trump put it and I agree.

Vacuous stupidity is vacuous stupidity. Putting the foolish and dangerous words, "something must be done!" into even fewer syllables is no accomplishment, save in the annals of idiocy.

The annals of idiocy is doing nothing of substance for close the thirty years

Stop right there. Typical right wing nonsense. Ignore the diplomatic success that was wrecked by Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework

And then start frothing about how essential bombing is.

Except here's the kicker - I'm not right wing, so feel free to stop with the us vs. them fallacy BS. They have violated the Agreed Framework from the start and are still importing parts and materials as well as finding ways to get around sanctions for both the nuclear program as well as cash for the regime. It cuts both ways. I think Clinton was right in that he wanted to avoid a conflict but he was wrong in that he didn't shut them down completely when he had the chance. Remember this was done in 1994 when the US was the only superpower and we had all the strings available to us with the breakdown of the USSR. NK should have been shut down then but it was allowed to continue its shenanigans under ALL administrations since then, both under Democrats and Republicans.

Ghost, is it ok to allow a regime to continue when they do things that are illegal under intl norms? We are at the point where substantive action can be taken on the NK issue and people are still defending that regime or dithering on past actions. The time is now to make sure NK can't continue its nuclear programs and to end its epic crimes against humanity via the UN and the US, preferably without a war. The clock continues to tick.

They let Saudi Arabia get away with egregious human rights violations.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Great statements re NK by Trump at the UN. The UN needs to do "much more" as Trump put it and I agree.

Vacuous stupidity is vacuous stupidity. Putting the foolish and dangerous words, "something must be done!" into even fewer syllables is no accomplishment, save in the annals of idiocy.

The annals of idiocy is doing nothing of substance for close the thirty years

Stop right there. Typical right wing nonsense. Ignore the diplomatic success that was wrecked by Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework

And then start frothing about how essential bombing is.

Except here's the kicker - I'm not right wing, so feel free to stop with the us vs. them fallacy BS. They have violated the Agreed Framework from the start and are still importing parts and materials as well as finding ways to get around sanctions for both the nuclear program as well as cash for the regime. It cuts both ways. I think Clinton was right in that he wanted to avoid a conflict but he was wrong in that he didn't shut them down completely when he had the chance. Remember this was done in 1994 when the US was the only superpower and we had all the strings available to us with the breakdown of the USSR. NK should have been shut down then but it was allowed to continue its shenanigans under ALL administrations since then, both under Democrats and Republicans.

"shut down" that's a nice euphemism for what, exactly? Starting a war that will result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people? Crashing Asia's economy, and maybe the world's with it? "Allowed" is another nice one. It implies the US government has some sort of divine right to dictate how other nations behave. Sovereignty is a thing. And I think it's a good thing.

Ghost, is it ok to allow a regime to continue when they do things that are illegal under intl norms? We are at the point where substantive action can be taken on the NK issue and people are still defending that regime or dithering on past actions. The time is now to make sure NK can't continue its nuclear programs and to end its epic crimes against humanity via the UN and the US, preferably without a war. The clock continues to tick.

"Is it ok to allow a regime to continue when they do things that are illegal under intl norms?"
Let's see...

Nations other than North Korea that have developed nuclear weapons outside the NPT:
India
Israel
Pakistan
South Africa

Apparently the answer is yes. Yes it is.

Oh, and "international norms" as enforced by the US also say that if Kim does give up his nukes, he's going to be dragged out and executed, along with his family.  Great examples we set with Iraq and Libya.

Also, "international norms" for the US apparently include regularly threatening other nations with nuclear annihilation and aggressive wars (aka. war crimes), especially ones conducted without any UN sanction at all. They include openly spying on everyone on the planet. They include killing hundreds of innocent civilians because we're scared. Like it or not, the US is more of a rogue nation than North Korea is. We're just much richer, and have much bigger sticks.

More euphemisms.  "allow"  "substantive action can be taken" "The time is now" For what, exactly? We're right back around to "something must be done". What!? Nilitary action (nuclear or not) will unleash a crisis the world hasn't seen in decades. And it will risk the largest war since WWII. Either way, NK's bio, chemical, rocket, and nuclear tech will leak out to bad actors around the world. Or we squeeze them until something breaks and we get the same result but can pretend it wasn't our fault. Or we talk, which we can do anyway, at any time.

This is what really makes me angry. There is no actual, rational plan of action other than talking along with economic carrots and sticks. But people on the right (meaning most of the US) keep pretending that their is.

The Kim regime is not nice. It's awful. But there aren't any easy solutions. No magic bullets. The reality is, sometimes you have to deal with people you don't like and who aren't nice, and deal with them fairly. Otherwise you end up with even worse problems down the road. Like we have right now.

My suggestion is that the US participate in reopening six-party talks, stop the threats, and conduct some diplomacy. The short-term goal is a reduction in tension. Medium term goal is to get the NK government to scale back nuclear and ICBM programs (they'll never give them up now). Long term, get their nuclear materials under an IAEA inspection regime, increase the standard of living for North Koreans, get North Korea more connected and open. Eventually, it'll be a functional nation and/or reunify without crippling South Korea.

What better alternatives are you or our Republican government presenting? Right now, it looks like the best the US has on offer is an impatient mix of schoolyard threats and tantrums.

[NewYorkExpress]

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/japan-pm-says-time-for-north-korea-dialogue-is-over-9234926

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Will China stand in the way of putting more pressure on North Korea?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Kim Jong Un has teen sex slaves who feed him caviar, defector claims
https://nypost.com/2017/09/19/kim-jong-un-has-teen-sex-slaves-who-feed-him-caviar-defector-claims/

"The escapee said they would only choose the prettiest girls, who were taught to feed him caviar and massage him.

If they refused, they would “disappear,” she said."

--

Typical and expected. NK kidnaps women to serve as slaves and translators, so to have them as servers and masseuses doesn't surprise me at all.

Reading on in that:

"And she described one occasion when she was forced to watch as a group of 11 musicians accused of making a pornographic video were slaughtered.

Hee Yeon told how she and her classmates were ordered out of their classrooms in the middle of the day by soldiers who took them to a stadium at the city’s Military Academy.

She said the hooded and gagged victims were brought out and tied to the end of anti-aircraft guns in front of some 10,000 spectators.

The escapee then recalled how the guns were fired one by one, saying: “The musicians just disappeared each time the guns were fired into them.

“Their bodies were blown to bits, totally destroyed, blood and bits flying everywhere.”

Afterward, Hee Yeon said tanks moved in and ran over the pieces of the victims’ bodies."

Coming from such a reputable source as the New York Post, too! What's next? Stories of how Kim Jong-Un murders babies?

When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators
https://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html


Still not a plan. Just even more screaming that something has to be done.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Trump just signed further sanctions and the ability of the Treasury Dept. to sanction individual NK leaders and the regime, to target anyone doing business with NK.

China has told its banks to stop doing business with NK. Trump has thanked China for this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5GpByI7OuI

The Rocket Man Fat Kid won't be too happy about this.

[Santander]

Chinese and Macanese banks will quietly start doing business with North Korea again, and even without them, North Korea can continue to do business in Singapore and other willfully ignorant countries in Southeast Asia (which is really a wild west of money laundering), although in retrospect, angering Malaysia looks worse and worse for Kim as time goes on. Getting too cute with Japan and basically losing Chongryon was a massive loss, too, possibly bigger than the token sanctions imposed by China.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

The Crazy Fat Kid will probably kill his UN envoy if he sets foot again in the DPRK.......probably with a rocket.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The Crazy Fat Kid will probably kill his UN envoy if he sets foot again in the DPRK.......probably with a rocket.

I'm pretty sure the generals will stop him before it gets that far. Distract him with a rally or some pretty pictures.

[HisGrace]

Growing push to expel NK from the UN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPJTeOPojOQ

Also, NK likens Trump's UN speech to "the sound of a dog barking" http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/21/politics/north-korea-donald-trump-united-nations/index.html

Kicking them out of the UN won't solve anything and will probably only make things worse.

And LOL, I think that's a broken clock moment for NK. Although I think it may be insulting to dogs.