WaPo: There’s no such thing as a Trump Democrat
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  WaPo: There’s no such thing as a Trump Democrat
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Author Topic: WaPo: There’s no such thing as a Trump Democrat  (Read 4219 times)
NOVA Green
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2017, 01:12:15 AM »

I completely agree with the concept that many of these voters went for George W. in '00/04.

How does this work when Kerry and Gore both won WI/MI/PA? Trump outperformed Bush by several points across the Midwest.

Bush came within a percentage point of flipping Wisconsin both times, came within 4 points of flipping Michigan in 2004 (5.2 points in 2000), and came within 2.5 points of flipping Pennsylvania in 2004 (4.2 points in 2000).

Now compare Obama's margins in these states in 08' and 12' and it's clear that there's a sizeable contingency of Bush-Obama-Trump voters in them.

It's also important to note that many of these "swing voters", as opposed to simplistically "Trump Democrats", tended to be much older than the national population.

For all the focus on "WWC Voters", what is often ignored in the conversation, is that this demographically is disproportionately represented by Seniors, since back in the days it was a lot less common to have an associates of college degree to work a decent paying job.

This is precisely the WWC Demographic that Trump resonated with the strongest.

Seriously, run a plot chart of counties with the US isolating this age, ethnic, and educational Demographic, and I would bet money, that the swings in '16 were much higher in counties with a correlation to that Demographic.

The logical fallacy that the WaPo makes, is by solely measuring voters "self-identified" by Party affiliation. There are a Millions of voters that have switched back and forth between Political Parties over the years, and many of these swing voters no longer identify as "Democrats", although many still frequently vote Democratic for all sorts of races.

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Joe McCarthy Was Right
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« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 07:12:11 PM »

More than half of Luzerne County is literally registered Democrat. And Trump increased turnout there while winning.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2017, 03:06:47 AM »

More than half of Luzerne County is literally registered Democrat. And Trump increased turnout there while winning.

@ Joe McCarthy Was Right----

You are absolutely correct, although certainly one County does not prove a point, I certainly agree that there were quite a few registered Democrats in throughout all States of our Great Nation, that did vote for Donald Trump in '16.....

Although I haven't run the numbers on certain places in small town and rural Oregon, this certainly appears to be the case.

Not in any way shape or form a fan of our current President, but to deny that there were many registered Democrats that voted Trump in '16, especially in many Blue Collar Mill Towns in places like Rural and Small-Town Oregon, Wisconsin, and Northern Maine, must be an individual that is either smoking the "crack pipe" (In our neck of the woods that refers to Crystal Meth), or a delusional Democratic Hack from a large Metro area, that has never spent time in "downstate" parts of the US.

There is a classic term called the "Canary in the Coal Mines"....

Basically for the Democratic Party this was the '92 General Election and Ross Perot's candidacy...

It's so odd that many Atlas posters don't get the fact that Bill Clinton's candidacy was the beginning of the decline of Democratic support among WWC voters....

George HW Bush sold American Manufacturing under the river with MFN status with China...

The Democrats in the US Senate backed that full throttle, although this was a much more popular position among the 'Pubs....

Bill Clinton supported and signed NAFTA into law, that was a Big Business and Free Trade Agreement, again predominately supported by Republicans in the US House and Senate (Along with Democratic collaborators).

What is often forgotten is that Trade Unions fought tooth and nail against both MFN with China and NAFTA....

We marched in the streets, lobbied our congressional delegations, to stop what was essentially a blank check for Multi National Corporations (MNCs) to rob us blind under the guise of "Free Trade" agreements....

Where were the Democratic and Republican political leaders on these major issues, while our living wage Union (Or Non-Union prevailing wage jobs) were vanishing in the Millions under the sacred alter of "Free Trade" agreements?

I saw thousands of jobs disappear almost overnight from a Fortune Fifty Tech company that I worked for as a contractor for over a decade, at just one large facility....

Now, a sliver of the jobs are coming back that pay $2/hr less than they did in 1998!

Making America Great Again (MAGA).... more like Making My Arse sh**tty Again (MASA)....

Why the Hell are mfg jobs flowing back to America from Fortune 50 companies that pay significantly less than they did 20 years ago?Huh

That being said, at least the job market is relatively hot here, so the companies attempt to subcontract manufacturing labor, rather than use their traditional model of direct hire, will likely backfire in a county where the unemployment rate is < 3%.....

We are all dropping like flies.... got a job offer that pays 150% hour than what I'm doing right now in a precision assembly tech role. Why would I stay working as a sub for an MNC that "In-sourced" mfg to the US and subcontracted to barely above min wages, when I have a job offer to work at an Mfg plant right down the road that pays $5/Hr more, which is a family owned business with a strong local rep as treating their employees decently, which is why it one of the few Non-Union plants in the industry in current Mill Town in which I currently live.

Anyways--- rant aside....

Plenty of Trump Democrats all over the US, regardless of party registration.....

Where I work and live, they are all dropping like flies, even in a traditionally Republican Mill Town in Oregon that Trump won by 10% margins with 49% of the Popular Vote....

HRC wasn't popular, but even among my Blue collar co-workers and buddies, Trump is sinking faster than a lead balloon.... or was that a Led Zepplin?
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2017, 05:02:30 AM »

Right, Elliot County Kentucky was always hardcore Republican.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2017, 02:02:23 AM »
« Edited: August 18, 2017, 04:53:08 PM by NOVA Green »

Right, Elliot County Kentucky was always hardcore Republican.

So, for anyone curious, is a graph of 100 years of Presidential Elections in Elliot County, Kentucky....

Now because there are some 25+ US Pres elections it would be easy to mistake the Democratic '16 numbers with Republican 1912 numbers....

Note that although the first time in recent elections where it significantly swung Republican was in '00 (Without a Nader effect), this was totally reversed in '04 as a reset to a bit more of the norm.

Still, even in '08 Obama's numbers were relatively respectable, and 'Pub performance was only marginally improved from their '00 numbers.....

You really see the big swings happen in '12 and '16.....

There were definitely a ton of Obama/Trump voters in this County, many of whom had voted Democrat in just about every election.



Although Elliott County is perhaps one of the  most extreme examples, I could certainly pull up some various precincts and towns in Oregon, where one would definitely observe the phenomenon of "Trump Democrats".....

As I stated previously in many parts of the Country in resource based communities and places with much deeper roots in the New Deal Labor movement, many of these voters have essentially functioned more as "swing voters" in Modern American Presidential Election History....

Although personally I don't believe that one's Party Registration status is the sole determining factor in Presidential Elections, it can definitely also be an indicator....

So, many people on Atlas were surprised that Columbia County, Oregon flipped and voted Republican for the first time since 1928!!!!   I was not not completely surprised, since changes in voter registration patterns over the past few decades have generally been in the Republican's favor....

Additionally, as a County with a strong "New Deal Democrat" type mindset and strong Labor Union tradition, would be a place where Trump's economic Nationalistic message would likely appeal...

Still, Ronald Reagan lost by 2.5% to Mondale in '84, Reagan lost to Carter by 3.3% in '80, Nixon lost to McCarthy by 5.3% in '72!

George W. losing by only 2.8% in '04 should have been a warning sign....

Meanwhile Obama performs better than his National averages in '08/'12, and Trump wins by 11% in '16!

Shoot--- I know some Obama/Trump voters that are still friends of mine, (despite their '16 voting mistake imho),

Now, one could make an argument that in a State like Oregon where registered Independents are close to 1/3 voters in the State, that "they aren't Trump Democrats because they are not registered Democrats".

To go back to the WashPo original article, I think the whole concept of Partisan affiliation (Measured How? RV Party Affiliation, Self-Identification???).

Still, the easiest way to measure the phenomenon of "Trump Democrats" would be to pull data sets from various counties/cities/key precincts and Uninc Metro areas, and simply look at their voting history from 2000-2016....

It is patently clear that there were many people that voted for Trump in '16 after having voted for Obama 1x/2x, as well as many that swung back and forth between Dem/Rep in '00/'04, and we are not even talking about the Perot phenomenon as potentially being a leading indicator of the Trump phenomenon, that also started to indicate a fundamental break from a traditional Democratic constituency towards becoming a Republican constituency....

So was starting to crack a joke of my own making using arguably one one of best and classic VP Presidential Debates in Modern US History (1980+) the classic Bentsen-Quayle debate of '88.

* Insert personal brief anecdote*--- Coincidentally when I was in my Mid-Teens and we were driving through Iowa somewhere between Des Moines and Iowa City, as part of our annual Summer visits to visit my Mom's parents in PA..... Naturally the VP debate was on our car radio, not to far from where it was held in Omaha, Nebraska at the height of the Farm crisis...

My natural thought pattern on the attempted skewer line would be something like the following" "I know Trump Democrats... Trump Democrats are friends of Mine... Sir, you are no Trump Democrat"....

There are many swing voters that have been all over the map in Presidential Elections over the past few decades.... Many of them do not consider themselves either Democrat nor Republican.... Still, Trump was able to appeal to a significant enough chunk of these voters to actually narrowly capture the PV and win the EV in a few states.

The phrase "You are no Trump Democrat" will hit hard in '18, will hit hard among these Ancestral Democratic parts of the Country in the Midterm elections, since as we have discussed elsewhere these swings towards Trump between '08 and '16 happened precisely in these areas....

Now that Trump is on the ropes towards the last Boxing rounds, these same fickle swing voters are more than likely to swing the other way, towards a Boxer from the other side.

Clinton was a horrible messenger to represent a Progressive Economically Populist message in many communities that voted Dukakis, Clinton v 1.0 wins but Perot voters swing hard Rep in George W. 1x or 2x, swung back towards Obama 1x or 2x, and then hard Trump '16.

What sometimes the commentators and pundits, including many of y'all on Atlas don't get, is how fickle those of us who feel like we've been screwed over for decades by Big Business, Big Banks, and Big Money, sometimes get....

We see a trickle up, but never a trickle down....

Yes---- Let's Make America Great Again (MAGA).... Although I respect Trump for calling out the BS elective wars overseas (Iraq) supported by Democrats and Republican alike at the highest levels of political office from 1990-2008.... I respect him calling out Democrats and Republicans alike for ramming through massive Free Trade agreements that started with MFN (China) under Bush Sr, NAFTA (Bill Clinton), TPP (Obama).

Ultimately, these Trade Agreements have resulted in a massively accelerated "Race to the Bottom" Globally, and especially so in the United States.

There is a reason that the "Left-Wing" of the Labor Movement has been fighting against this crap for over four decades!!!!

Interestingly enough, in the High-Tech Fortune 50 Company that I now work at as a contractor, jobs are coming back to America..... The Company bet on massive Corp Tax breaks under a 'Pub Pres (And is one of several HUGE tech comps on the radar for dodging Fed Taxes by shifting assets), and suddenly shut down all Production in Ireland to "bring jobs back to America".... Now contract workers in Oregon are getting paid Min wage to perform the same jobs, with no Benefits until 9 months into the job, where former MFG cleanroom workers were making $5/Hr more ten years back!

Now--- the plant I work at the vast majority of us Assembly Line workers are Bernie backers, regardless of the newer Millennials on the line, or those of us in the 40+ category....

So--- again back on topic. There are a ton of "Trump Democrats" out there, honestly not to mention some Sanders/Trump cross-overs (Not too many in Oregon, but sure there are quite a few in the Upper Midwest).

WashPo Story is crap.... as friend I used to work with who had no problem telling me even in the High-Tech setting about growing up a Redneck, where the deer is getting literally gutted on the dining room table after a score during hunting season, "If it doesn't pass the sniff test....).

The "No-Trump Dem" WashPo theory doesn't pass the sniff test. The concept and freak-out on the part of many Atlas posters regarding WWCs becoming a permanent Republican fixture does not have enough data points to pass the sniff test....

The theory of "Reagan Democrats" might be a bit bunk to explain Trump '16, but still, if one looks at Reagan's performance by County and adjust for age, ethnicity, and a few other variables, it does make sense that in places like Macomb County, there would actually be quite a few folks that are now retired UAW members, 65+, and large % of Pop with < college degree.

"Reagan Democrats" don't explain Michigan, but still he did pretty well in '80/'84 in many parts of the Country, that would now hit the key Trump Demographic range.


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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2017, 02:38:45 AM »

I think the main difference between Trump Dems and Reagan Dems is that Trump Dems will mainly go back to being Democrats ,while with Reagan Dems most of them realigned into becoming Republicans .
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2017, 03:14:52 AM »

I think the main difference between Trump Dems and Reagan Dems is that Trump Dems will mainly go back to being Democrats ,while with Reagan Dems most of them realigned into becoming Republicans .

Well, no. Michael Dukakis in 1988 actually carried the majority of Democrats who purported to have voted Reagan, and an even larger percentage voted for Bill Clinton in 1992, which was the last year the question was asked.
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NOVA Green
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2017, 05:43:20 PM »

I think the main difference between Trump Dems and Reagan Dems is that Trump Dems will mainly go back to being Democrats ,while with Reagan Dems most of them realigned into becoming Republicans .

Well, no. Michael Dukakis in 1988 actually carried the majority of Democrats who purported to have voted Reagan, and an even larger percentage voted for Bill Clinton in 1992, which was the last year the question was asked.

Not sure exactly what the bolded section is intended to state.... Are you saying that a question was asked of self-identified Democrats to the effect of "Who did you vote for in 1984 and who did you vote for today" (Or something to that effect).

Do you have links or sources, or something that you can cite on this? Not at all trying to nitpick nor critique/criticize your statement, but I'm actually a bit confused about how Bill Clinton in '92 could have performed better than Dukakis among people that voted for Ronald Reagan in '84, especially considering how the Perot factor played out in '92 and sucked up a huge number of people that had voted for either Bush or Dukakis in '88....

Still, I think Old Skool does have a legit point regarding "Trump Democrats" in many parts of the country. At this point Trump appears to be an deviance from the norm for a Republican candidate, so the whole demographics are destiny and how just because there were major swings in both various "WWC" communities and "Upper-Income Suburbs of Metro areas", doesn't inherently prove anything regarding the futurity of these voters.

Sure, it is absolutely true that the concept of "Reagan Democrats" was a bit over-hyped by the MSM compared to the actual reality....

Where the Reagan Democrat phenomenon appears to have been more of a permanent fixture was in many places in the "Deep South", as opposed to places in the Midwest/Northeast/West....

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Young Conservative
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2017, 03:40:09 PM »

Well, not anymore. He made most of them Republicans.
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« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2017, 11:40:57 PM »

I think it is absolutely non debatable that there were a significant number of "Trump Democrats" throughout most States and Counties within the US.

It is mathematically impossible to explain various swings in counties and precincts without the existence of a significant number of voters that went Obama in '08 and/or '12, and then voted Trump in '16.

Now---- I think where it gets tricky is looking at the partisan affiliation of such voters in '16. How many of them were registered Republican, Democrat, Independent when they voted in '16?

I completely agree with the concept that many of these voters went for George W. in '00/04. In fact, my own detailed precinct analysis from Oregon appears to support that argument. So yes, the provocative headline does have merit, in that the votes for Obama were the exception and not the norm in many of these counties/cities that swung heavily towards Trump.

Still, despite the articles massive claim, it's essentially just describing many classic swing voters that have shifted back and forth over the past three decades, and not really contributing anything new that those of us on Atlas haven't already been looking at for years.


I think your mostly right but there are gore/Kerry/Obama/Obama/trump voters just look at COOS COUNTY OREGON NORTHERN MAINE a lot of MN and IA and WV and WI AND MI AND OHIO AND PA AND SOUTHWESTERN WASHINGTON but like I said your mostly right
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