Japanese Internment vs. Ignoring the AIDs Crisis

[Higgins]

What was the more immoral action? FDR interning the Japanese, or Reagan ignoring AIDS until 1987?

[Kamala]

Japanese internment, and the Korematsu decision, are a great blemish on the face of the US. I think it is unconstitutional, but 1940s SCOTUS didn't.

[Santander]

Japanese internment was ineffective and a mistake, but it was not immoral given the situation.

Virtually everything Ronald Wilson Reagan did was immoral, which, in a way, is something I admire about him.

Japanese internment, even if you believe it to be immoral, was a temporary suspension of civil liberties for a small group of people. It was an unfortunate, misguided policy, but it cannot compare with the kind of death and suffering caused by the HIV/AIDS policies of politicians like Reagan in the 1980s, the legacy of which we're still living with as a society.

[Higgins]

Japanese internment was ineffective and a mistake, but it was not immoral given the situation.

Virtually everything Ronald Wilson Reagan did was immoral, which, in a way, is something I admire about him.

I think the Japanese who spent years in a prison camp just for being Japanese would consider it much more than a "mistake." Even J. Edgar Hoover, that noted paragon of racial tolerance, urged Roosevelt not to do it.

[Beet]

Internment happened when the 48 states weren't even attacked. Only god knows what happens to Asian Americans if an American city is nuked.

[Santander]

Japanese internment was ineffective and a mistake, but it was not immoral given the situation.

Virtually everything Ronald Wilson Reagan did was immoral, which, in a way, is something I admire about him.

I think the Japanese who spent years in a prison camp just for being Japanese would consider it much more than a "mistake." Even J. Edgar Hoover, that noted paragon of racial tolerance, urged Roosevelt not to do it.

They weren't Japanese, they were Americans. That is why it was a mistake. However, at the time, we had a different idea of what it meant to be American, and such views were not limited towards Americans of Japanese ethnicity.

[Higgins]

Japanese internment was ineffective and a mistake, but it was not immoral given the situation.

Virtually everything Ronald Wilson Reagan did was immoral, which, in a way, is something I admire about him.

I think the Japanese who spent years in a prison camp just for being Japanese would consider it much more than a "mistake." Even J. Edgar Hoover, that noted paragon of racial tolerance, urged Roosevelt not to do it.

They weren't Japanese, they were Americans. That is why it was a mistake. However, at the time, we had a different idea of what it meant to be American, and such views were not limited towards Americans of Japanese ethnicity.

A mistake is when you forget to take the coffee off the boiler. Jailing thousands of citizens because of their ethnicity is not a mistake.

[Santander]

A mistake is when you forget to take the coffee off the boiler. Jailing thousands of citizens because of their ethnicity is not a mistake.

They were relocated to areas where they could not be compromised by Japan, and because like I said, at the time, people (and the law) had a different idea of what it meant to be American, and the presence of ethnic Japanese in major cities on the West Coast would've been problematic to public order. The Japanese in Hawaii were largely untouched by this policy, so it was not purely a racist policy like you suggest. It was misguided, but there were some pragmatic considerations.

Difficult times call for difficult decisions, and not all of them are correct in retrospect. I don't want to malign our leaders of the time with the kind of sanctimonious language you choose to use.

[Kamala]

I don't see how Japanese internment wasn't immoral; it literally criminalized existence - the existence of being of an American with Japanese descent. That's a fundamental, immora misapplication of government power.

[Kingpoleon]

I don't see how Japanese internment wasn't immoral; it literally criminalized existence - the existence of being of an American with Japanese descent. That's a fundamental, immora misapplication of government power.

But it prevented spies!!!

"We may have lost our humanity, but at least we won the war."

[OSR stands with Israel]

Japanese Internment was way worse

[vanguard96]

A mistake is when you forget to take the coffee off the boiler. Jailing thousands of citizens because of their ethnicity is not a mistake.

They were relocated to areas where they could not be compromised by Japan, and because like I said, at the time, people (and the law) had a different idea of what it meant to be American, and the presence of ethnic Japanese in major cities on the West Coast would've been problematic to public order. The Japanese in Hawaii were largely untouched by this policy, so it was not purely a racist policy like you suggest. It was misguided, but there were some pragmatic considerations.

Difficult times call for difficult decisions, and not all of them are correct in retrospect. I don't want to malign our leaders of the time with the kind of sanctimonious language you choose to use.

Didn't you just change colors from blue to red about a month ago?

[Higgins]

A mistake is when you forget to take the coffee off the boiler. Jailing thousands of citizens because of their ethnicity is not a mistake.

They were relocated to areas where they could not be compromised by Japan, and because like I said, at the time, people (and the law) had a different idea of what it meant to be American, and the presence of ethnic Japanese in major cities on the West Coast would've been problematic to public order. The Japanese in Hawaii were largely untouched by this policy, so it was not purely a racist policy like you suggest. It was misguided, but there were some pragmatic considerations.

Difficult times call for difficult decisions, and not all of them are correct in retrospect. I don't want to malign our leaders of the time with the kind of sanctimonious language you choose to use.

Didn't you just change colors from blue to red about a month ago?

Yes, yes he did.

[Santander]

I don't see how Japanese internment wasn't immoral; it literally criminalized existence - the existence of being of an American with Japanese descent. That's a fundamental, immora misapplication of government power.

First of all, nobody was charged with crimes for simply being ethnic Japanese, so cool the hyperbole.

Very few ethnic Japanese living in Hawaii, which are the largest Japanese population in the US, were not sent to internment camps. Japanese internment was a temporary suspension of civil liberties for people who were considered to be a potential threat (whether or not they were culpable for that threat, because at the time, anti-Japanese sentiment was understandably high) to national security and public order, partly due to their potential to be compromised by an enemy nation, which was Japan. Some ethnic Japanese Americans were affected by this policy, and some were not, depending on where they lived.

The policy was regrettable and worthy of the apology and financial reparations that were given to them, but it is inaccurate to say it was purely racially-motivated, and I don't see what good it does to assume that it was done with immoral intentions, especially in the context of the original post.

[Higgins]

First of all, nobody was charged with crimes for simply being ethnic Japanese, so cool the hyperbole.

They didn't need to be charged. If someone came to your house and told you that because of your ethnicity, you needed to leave everything and everyone you knew behind, to be relocated to a hellish part of the country in what was basically a non-lethal concentration camp, you'd feel like you were being treated like a perp. So, no, they weren't even charged with any crime; their guilt was automatically assumed because of how they looked.

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It was a rounding and locking up of thousands of your fellow citizens based on their appearance and ethnicity. That's immoral. Don't try to downplay it.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Japanese internment, even if you believe it to be immoral, was a temporary suspension of civil liberties for a small group of people. It was an unfortunate, misguided policy, but it cannot compare with the kind of death and suffering caused by the HIV/AIDS policies of politicians like Reagan in the 1980s, the legacy of which we're still living with as a society.

Who is Reagan to interfere with an act of God?

[America Needs R'hllor]

I love FDR and think that he was the best President America ever had, but yeah, internment was horrible. Still, giving it to the AIDs crisis because the end result was worse.

[vanguard96]

I don't see how Japanese internment wasn't immoral; it literally criminalized existence - the existence of being of an American with Japanese descent. That's a fundamental, immora misapplication of government power.

First of all, nobody was charged with crimes for simply being ethnic Japanese, so cool the hyperbole.

Very few ethnic Japanese living in Hawaii, which are the largest Japanese population in the US, were not sent to internment camps. Japanese internment was a temporary suspension of civil liberties for people who were considered to be a potential threat (whether or not they were culpable for that threat, because at the time, anti-Japanese sentiment was understandably high) to national security and public order, partly due to their potential to be compromised by an enemy nation, which was Japan. Some ethnic Japanese Americans were affected by this policy, and some were not, depending on where they lived.

The policy was regrettable and worthy of the apology and financial reparations that were given to them, but it is inaccurate to say it was purely racially-motivated, and I don't see what good it does to assume that it was done with immoral intentions, especially in the context of the original post.

Few Japanese in the Hawaiian territories were interned because they were 35% of the population of the island - so it was impractical and also they had many industrialists argue on their behalf.

Except it was racially-motivated, FDR joked about not caring about Italians in the context onf internment:

I don’t care so much about the Italians, they are a lot of opera singers, but the Germans are different. They may be dangerous.”


Indigenous Aleuts and others in Alaska were also interned based on looking Japanese.
Some even with as little as 1/16 Japanese blood were interned as well as orphans.

I suspect a lot of people with 1/2 or 1/4 German or Italian blood were not questioned for their loyalty - as only several thousand Germans and Italians nationals were forcibly detained.

As for racial motivation here's Internment Administrator General John L De Witt's testimony before Congress:

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Only $20,000 each was repaid to camp survivors - in 1988 over 40 years after the war. At the time they were given $25 and a train ticket to their original hometown many coming back to find their homes lost and businesses gone. That's absolute BS.

The reparations came too little, too late as the American Japanese Claims Act of 1948 had strict allowances for time limits and in the end only awarded $37 from a total $140M claimed by over 26,500 claimants who had lost property as a result of internment.

Finally, following a change in the attitudes of younger generations following the civil rights era there was noise for reparations. A symbolic gesture following investigations opened under Carter and signed to law under Reagan. Bush Sr appropriated an additional $400M to make sure that all survivors got their $20K and eventually they got that all paid by 1998.

A quote from Papa Bush:
"In remembering, it is important to come to grips with the past. No nation can fully understand itself or find its place in the world if it does not look with clear eyes at all the glories and disgraces of its past. We in the United States acknowledge such an injustice in our history. The internment of Americans of Japanese ancestry was a great injustice, and it will never be repeated."

Tom C Clark former Supreme Court Justice - who worked at the DOJ at the time on the issue but was not involved in the decision process:
"The truth is—as this deplorable experience proves—that constitutions and laws are not sufficient of themselves...Despite the unequivocal language of the Constitution of the United States that the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, and despite the Fifth Amendment's command that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, both of these constitutional safeguards were denied by military action under Executive Order 9066."

To chalk it up as simply an 'unfortunate mistake' does a great disservice to many people.

[Santander]

Morality only applies to intentions. Outcomes cannot be immoral. You can describe the outcomes as whatever you'd like - unjust, deplorable, unfortunate - and I would agree with you, but there is no such thing as an immoral outcome.

There may have been morally questionable intentions when crafting the policy, but I refuse to cast moral judgement on FDR and other leaders of the time for the complicated decisions they made during the most difficult times in US history.

[publicunofficial]

AIDS Crisis. The whole "It's a gay disease, just don't be a f****t and you'll live" thing is such a disgusting sentiment but that was basically Reagan's policy.

[SATW]

Japanese Internment was clearly much worse. The FDR apologists depress me.


The lack of response to the AIDs crisis was awful, clearly, but it does not compare to putting people in camps.

Also, I'm tired of the character assassination the left wages on Reagan and I think this article does a good job responding to it: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2014/06/01/ronald_reagan_and_aids_correcting_the_record_122806.html


EDIT: As you all know, I am LGBT, and I firmly support LGBT Equality, AIDs research funding, and other causes that impact this community. That being said, I'm sure someone will accuse me of being self-hating.

[Kingpoleon]

Just a reminder that Roosevelt could easily have ordered the death of all Japanese-Americans, and over fifty percent of the country supported wiping out everyone of Japanese blood.

At least Reagan's reaction to such a threat wasn't: "Jail all the gays!!!"

[Higgins]

Just a reminder that Roosevelt could easily have ordered the death of all Japanese-Americans, and over fifty percent of the country supported wiping out everyone of Japanese blood.

At least Reagan's reaction to such a threat wasn't: "Jail all the gays!!!"

[In 1978], Reagan was the anointed hero of American conservatism and the presumptive 1980 Republican presidential nominee when an Orange County state legislator, John Briggs, spearheaded a ballot initiative called Proposition 6 to bar gays and lesbians from teaching in public schools.

Reagan’s political handlers advised him to steer clear, but gay Republicans privately asked him to get involved, as did some Democratic friends and some Hollywood pals. Briggs, who wrongly assumed Reagan was on his side, publicly goaded him, too.

Intensive politicking by the California’s liberal establishment had pared Proposition 6’s support from a whopping 75 percent to 55 percent, but that’s where the needle stayed—until Reagan spoke out. In September, he told reporters of his opposition, and followed up with an op-ed saying Proposition 6 would do “real mischief.” Support for it eroded, even in Briggs’ home county, and it lost handily.

One of those who’d urged Reagan to intervene was Los Angeles gay activist David Mixner, a friend of future president Bill Clinton. “Never have I been treated more graciously by a human being,” Mixner said of his meeting with Reagan. “He turned opinion around and saved that election for us. He just thought it was wrong and came out against it.”

For the record, Reagan first mentioned AIDS, in response to a question at a press conference, on Sept. 17, 1985. On Feb. 5, 1986, he made a surprise visit to the Department of Health and Human Services where he said, “One of our highest public health priorities is going to be continuing to find a cure for AIDS.” He also announced that he’d tasked Surgeon General C. Everett Koop to prepare a major report on the disease. Contrary to the prevailing wisdom, Reagan dragged Koop into AIDS policy, not the other way around.

As for Waxman’s recollections about AIDS funding, he does an unusual thing for a politician: He’s forgotten the success he and other Democrats had in convincing Reagan to spend more money. The administration increased AIDS funding requests from $8 million in 1982 to $26.5 million in 1983, which Congress bumped to $44 million, a number that doubled every year thereafter during Reagan’s presidency."

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just a reminder that Roosevelt could easily have ordered the death of all Japanese-Americans, and over fifty percent of the country supported wiping out everyone of Japanese blood.

At least Reagan's reaction to such a threat wasn't: "Jail all the gays!!!"

Even accepting your first paragraph as true (doubtful, even with the Korematsu decision there's no way the Supreme Court would've upheld an order for an actual genocide), your logic is as follows:

1-FDR could've done a lot worse than what he actually did.
2-Reagan didn't do the absolute worse possible response he could've given.
3-Therefore, Reagan was not as bad.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Japanese internment, and the Korematsu decision, are a great blemish on the face of the US. I think it is unconstitutional, but 1940s SCOTUS didn't.