Protestors Topple Confederate Monument in North Carolina

[Ye We Can]

It is really remarkable that Americans are now further from achieving Lincoln's dream of national unity than they were in 1890; there are people in this thread right now who feel more animosity towards the Confederacy than did many of the men who actually fought against it.

That most of you seem to view the civil war as 'WWII on American soil' is an indictment of the American educational system.

I don't know why modern leftists seem to think that all of the men who actually fought the Confederates and the Nazis would be on their side today.

If George S. Patton were alive today, he would almost certainly have a higher opinion of Trump and the alt-right than the modern left. Patton does not strike me as someone who would be marching in BLM rallies, fighting for ''LGBT rights'', preaching about ''white privilege'', etc. if he were alive today.

It was mostly white, working class Christian men (who comprise most of the Republican base today) that defeated the Confederates and the Nazis. I don't even think most of the men who served in the Red Army would be SJWs today. Just look at how right-wing Russia is nowadays.

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

[SNJ1985]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

[Badger]

Ahhhhhhhhh, so vandalism and destruction of property is ok when it's lefties doing it? 

Thats always been the argument.

Yep. Black Lives Matter can protest and riot and set fire to stuff but Obama invites them to the White House. Imagine if Trump invited the KKK or these crazy nationalists to the White House. The libs would melt down. They're hypocrites.

Name one person involved in rioting (NOT peaceful protest) or setting fire to stuff Obama invited to the White House.

Go on. We'll wait. If you don't respond, we will all take that as an admission "I'm a moron who doesn't know what I'm talking about".

[KingSweden]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

Actually the Greatest Generation were more often than not ardent New Dealers. While I doubt they would sympathize with intersectional theory like today's progressives it's not like we sent some arch-conservative Christian legion to liberate Europe and Asia

[JA]

They should be torn down, preferably by governments, just like Nazi stuff was taken down across Germany. Whatever we don't need in museums should be strapped with explosives and detonated for public viewing.

[SNJ1985]

Actually the Greatest Generation were more often than not ardent New Dealers.

Yes, that's true. They weren't culturally left-wing, though. A lot of those who voted for Trump in 2016 had ancestors who supported Roosevelt and the New Deal. Just look at Appalachia.

[Badger]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

Thomas, if you're trying to make the point that the men born in the early 20th century and (at least among officers) late 19th century are more socially conservative than the average person in the 21st century, you're not exactly giving us a hot take here. Nor a remotely relevant one.

Don't think for a second that non-Christians weren't heavily represented among WWII troops. Nor non-whites despite the official racism that kept them segregated. That's 2 + 2 = 5 wrong.

Nor believe for a second the many working class folks who served weren't AT LEAST as supportive of FDR as the rest of the country.

Oh, a Gallup poll in 1943 found the home-based electorate split for the next year's election, but the military vote was 61% for FDR and the Republicans. Which is why northern Republicans joined southern Democrats in opposing wholesale expansion of military voting access by federal statute.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.539.2788&rep=rep1&type=pdf

(see pages 19-20).

[Sumner 1868]

Actually the Greatest Generation were more often than not ardent New Dealers.

Yes, that's true. They weren't culturally left-wing, though.

By the standards of 2017, no, but surveys from the 1940s and early 1950s showed they were the generation least supportive of Hayes Code, while most likely to support racial integration, appointing women and religious minorities as government and business officials, etc, etc.

[Badger]

Durham (or Durham County) would have taken down the statue by now if the state legislature, which is highly gerrymandered to a Republican supermajority, hadn't passed a law making it impossible for local governments to remove confederate monuments without approval from a state historical commission.

But what is your position on how this monument came down?

Illegal. Somewhat sympathetic in light of the fact that simply going to one's local government and handling it in the ordinary Democratic process was for stalled by Neo Jim Crow state government, but still illegal.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

My grandfather was missing part of his hand thanks to a German artillery.  He was a lifelong union man who talked fondly about the Maori, Ghurkas and Berbers he fought alongside. He thought Trump was an idiot in the 1980s. He certainly would not have changed his mind if he were still alive. He was disgusted at Bill Clinton's lack of military service and would find Trump's personal cowardice and embrace of fascism deplorable. (Sure, he wouldn't agree with me on some things. But he'd be just fine with people beating up Nazis.)

He also thought Patton was a jackwagon who got his men killed to boost his own ego.

[Badger]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

My grandfather was missing part of his hand thanks to a German artillery.  He was a lifelong union man who talked fondly about the Maori, Ghurkas and Berbers he fought alongside. He thought Trump was an idiot in the 1980s. He certainly would not have changed his mind if he were still alive. He was disgusted at Bill Clinton's lack of military service and would find Trump's personal cowardice and embrace of fascism deplorable. (Sure, he wouldn't agree with me on some things. But he'd be just fine with people beating up Nazis.)

He also thought Patton was a jackwagon who got his men killed to boost his own ego.

An ex-girlfriend of mine whom I dated for 5 years had a grandfather who fought in World War II he was decorated. Bronze star Silver Star, Purple Heart. I forget which regiment he was in, but it was V, and I mean the first boots to hit the ground on Omaha short of the paratroopers who came in the night before. He was literally Saving Private Ryan in carnate.

After the war he spent his career organizing unions and was a hardcore leftist until he died in his 80s in the early 2000's. His opinion of George W bush and the Iraq War would have been deleted by the mods for inappropriate language.

Anecdotal evidence isn't, but please take yourself out of this bubble that the greatest Generation veterans were a bunch of hard-working Republicans with few city boy Democrats and Southerners whose kids would windup Republicans who fought the war against Nazism. The existing empirical evidence such as what I previously cited demonstrates the troops were overwhelmingly Pro Roosevelt. The fact that a bunch of been born anywhere from a hundred to 130 + years ago may not have supported gay marriage is neither surprising, nor remotely relevant.

[HisGrace]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

My grandfather was missing part of his hand thanks to a German artillery.  He was a lifelong union man who talked fondly about the Maori, Ghurkas and Berbers he fought alongside. He thought Trump was an idiot in the 1980s. He certainly would not have changed his mind if he were still alive. He was disgusted at Bill Clinton's lack of military service and would find Trump's personal cowardice and embrace of fascism deplorable. (Sure, he wouldn't agree with me on some things. But he'd be just fine with people beating up Nazis.)

He also thought Patton was a jackwagon who got his men killed to boost his own ego.

An ex-girlfriend of mine whom I dated for 5 years had a grandfather who fought in World War II he was decorated. Bronze star Silver Star, Purple Heart. I forget which regiment he was in, but it was V, and I mean the first boots to hit the ground on Omaha short of the paratroopers who came in the night before. He was literally Saving Private Ryan in carnate.

After the war he spent his career organizing unions and was a hardcore leftist until he died in his 80s in the early 2000's. His opinion of George W bush and the Iraq War would have been deleted by the mods for inappropriate language.

Anecdotal evidence isn't, but please take yourself out of this bubble that the greatest Generation veterans were a bunch of hard-working Republicans with few city boy Democrats and Southerners whose kids would windup Republicans who fought the war against Nazism. The existing empirical evidence such as what I previously cited demonstrates the troops were overwhelmingly Pro Roosevelt. The fact that a bunch of been born anywhere from a hundred to 130 + years ago may not have supported gay marriage is neither surprising, nor remotely relevant.

The WWII generation voted for Democrats even into the 90's based on age stats in exit polls. Clinton carried the 50+ bracket both times.

Lots of people would denounce FDR and Truman as Sanders-like socialists if they ran today. I'm not a big fan of their economics, although that's a bit much.

[Badger]

>Implying George S Patton's political opinion is relevant to any of us

He's just an example of the point I'm trying to make. 1940s American men, including the ones who served in WW2, were not a very left-wing bunch. Plenty of them would sympathize with Trump and/or the alt-right today, contrary to what today's leftists apparently think.

My grandfather was missing part of his hand thanks to a German artillery.  He was a lifelong union man who talked fondly about the Maori, Ghurkas and Berbers he fought alongside. He thought Trump was an idiot in the 1980s. He certainly would not have changed his mind if he were still alive. He was disgusted at Bill Clinton's lack of military service and would find Trump's personal cowardice and embrace of fascism deplorable. (Sure, he wouldn't agree with me on some things. But he'd be just fine with people beating up Nazis.)

He also thought Patton was a jackwagon who got his men killed to boost his own ego.

An ex-girlfriend of mine whom I dated for 5 years had a grandfather who fought in World War II he was decorated. Bronze star Silver Star, Purple Heart. I forget which regiment he was in, but it was V, and I mean the first boots to hit the ground on Omaha short of the paratroopers who came in the night before. He was literally Saving Private Ryan in carnate.

After the war he spent his career organizing unions and was a hardcore leftist until he died in his 80s in the early 2000's. His opinion of George W bush and the Iraq War would have been deleted by the mods for inappropriate language.

Anecdotal evidence isn't, but please take yourself out of this bubble that the greatest Generation veterans were a bunch of hard-working Republicans with few city boy Democrats and Southerners whose kids would windup Republicans who fought the war against Nazism. The existing empirical evidence such as what I previously cited demonstrates the troops were overwhelmingly Pro Roosevelt. The fact that a bunch of been born anywhere from a hundred to 130 + years ago may not have supported gay marriage is neither surprising, nor remotely relevant.

The WWII generation voted for Democrats even into the 90's based on age stats in exit polls. Clinton carried the 50+ bracket both times.

Lots of people would denounce FDR and Truman as Sanders-like socialists if they ran today. I'm not a big fan of their economics, although that's a bit much.

Excellent point regarding comparisons between FDR, Truman and Sanders economic policy

[Crumpets]

His opinion of George W bush and the Iraq War would have been deleted by the mods for inappropriate language.

I have to say, this reminds me of my own grandpa, himself a WWII veteran, whose last words were "Damn Yankees!" after one of their wins in the 2004 playoffs, and who died within hours of Kerry conceding to Bush.

[publicunofficial]

The WWII generation hated socialism! Which is why they voted for FDR four times and thanked Democrats for Social Security by giving them control of the House for most of the century.

[MasterJedi]

Should have been saved for history, but Nazis walking through the streets and the President backing them leads to drastic action. Tear down the racist reminders, southern losers don't need participation trophies.

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

Five down and more are coming!

Baltimore hauls away four Confederate monuments after overnight removal

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[vanguard96]

They should replace every Confederate statue in the South with General Sherman

That's a terrible idea. They should rip down the Sherman statues in NY, MI, and everywhere. He advocated total war against civilians. Why even honor military generals - glory hounds who would send reluctant young men to die futilely.

[vanguard96]

As long as we're talking failed regimes guilty of massive war crimes I'd like to see these get toppled too:
Lenin Statues in America
Las Vegas - outside Red Square Restaurant, Mandalay Bay Hotel - Headless
Atlantic City, New Jersey - in the Tropicana Casino
New York City - on top of the Red Square apartment building, E. Houston St. in the East Village[3]
Seattle - Fremont neighborhood (See Statue of Lenin (Seattle))
Head of Lenin, Los Angeles, California - outside a branch of the Ace Gallery, the Ace Museum, on the corner of La Brea Avenue and 4th Street.
Stalin:
A bust of Stalin is displayed at the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, Virginia.

Not crazy about Lenin/Stalin statues either and wouldn't have a problem with them being taken down. Although I think the headless one is supposed to be making fun of him. The Red Square Restaurant has a ironic/mocking Soviet kitsch theme. It's a lot easier to laugh at something like that since we don't have thousands of hardcore Marxist-Leninists marching around and launching numerous attacks every year, as is the case with Neo-Confederates/White Supremacists.

Regardless, why are we bringing up statues of Lenin and Stalin in a thread about Confederate monuments?

I would like to see the Confederate ones removed too - but if we're talking about honoring failed movements (Confederates and Nazis) why not mention the one that the left turns a blind eye toward again and again and again? 

So many people died on the orders of Lenin and the Soviet Union, Mao and Communist China, Che and the Cuban regime - I understand personal items such as Andy Warhol's pop art but a statue of the Communist leader who ordered the killing of dissidents in the US on display in public?

It's as disgusting as the Bedford Forrest privately owned statue in Brentwood, TN - which I would not mind its removal, BTW

So much of it comes from honoring so called 'Great Men' political leaders and military generals that should be put in museums not blatantly erected after the fact by those who idolize them - neo-Confederates / KKK and Socialists (in the case of the Lenin statues).

 

[vanguard96]

It is really remarkable that Americans are now further from achieving Lincoln's dream of national unity than they were in 1890; there are people in this thread right now who feel more animosity towards the Confederacy than did many of the men who actually fought against it.

That most of you seem to view the civil war as 'WWII on American soil' is an indictment of the American educational system.

Is absolute national unity a worthwhile goal if it means that people will have another Civil War?

[vanguard96]

As long as we're talking failed regimes guilty of massive war crimes I'd like to see these get toppled too:
Lenin Statues in America
Las Vegas - outside Red Square Restaurant, Mandalay Bay Hotel - Headless
Atlantic City, New Jersey - in the Tropicana Casino
New York City - on top of the Red Square apartment building, E. Houston St. in the East Village[3]
Seattle - Fremont neighborhood (See Statue of Lenin (Seattle))
Head of Lenin, Los Angeles, California - outside a branch of the Ace Gallery, the Ace Museum, on the corner of La Brea Avenue and 4th Street.
Stalin:
A bust of Stalin is displayed at the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, Virginia.

Lenin statues in vegas/atlantic city are probably more insulting to the man than tearing the things down would be.
Also In regards to the Op the statue at hand was put up in 1924 at a height of a KKK revival .

At least Seattle should go down then along with changes at these statues in the south - as well as Stone Mountain which was carved in 1916 by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

[MasterJedi]

It is really remarkable that Americans are now further from achieving Lincoln's dream of national unity than they were in 1890; there are people in this thread right now who feel more animosity towards the Confederacy than did many of the men who actually fought against it.

That most of you seem to view the civil war as 'WWII on American soil' is an indictment of the American educational system.

Is absolute national unity a worthwhile goal if it means that people will have another Civil War?

Republicans failed back in the day, should have fully subjugated the south and purged this evil from coming back, instead we just had to let it fester for over 100 years as people worship traitors and slavery.

[SoLongAtlas]

My 4th great-grandfather marched with Sherman as a part of the OVI (Ohio Vol. Infantry). Every one of these cops arresting people needs to know that they are arresting them for statues of TRAITORS but up during the 20s Klan revival movements, vandalism or no.

All of them need to come down and/or go into a museum.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Ahhhhhhhhh, so vandalism and destruction of property is ok when it's lefties doing it? 

Thats always been the argument.

The City of New Orleans is removing those monuments, the mayor of Lexington says he's having them removed......just a couple of examples.......I don't have a problem since they want it done legally.

Toppling them - criminal act, period.

     I can't agree strongly enough. The supportive reactions in this thread only serve to demonstrate the fundamental disrespect the left has for the rule of law. Take these statues down the right way: without a violent mob.

[GeorgiaModerate]

As long as we're talking failed regimes guilty of massive war crimes I'd like to see these get toppled too:
Lenin Statues in America
Las Vegas - outside Red Square Restaurant, Mandalay Bay Hotel - Headless
Atlantic City, New Jersey - in the Tropicana Casino
New York City - on top of the Red Square apartment building, E. Houston St. in the East Village[3]
Seattle - Fremont neighborhood (See Statue of Lenin (Seattle))
Head of Lenin, Los Angeles, California - outside a branch of the Ace Gallery, the Ace Museum, on the corner of La Brea Avenue and 4th Street.
Stalin:
A bust of Stalin is displayed at the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, Virginia.

Lenin statues in vegas/atlantic city are probably more insulting to the man than tearing the things down would be.
Also In regards to the Op the statue at hand was put up in 1924 at a height of a KKK revival .

At least Seattle should go down then along with changes at these statues in the south - as well as Stone Mountain which was carved in 1916 by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

Stacey Abrams, a Democratic candidate for GA governor, has called for removing the Confederate faces from Stone Mountain.