Protestors Topple Confederate Monument in North Carolina

[Associate Justice PiT]

Ahhhhhhhhh, so vandalism and destruction of property is ok when it's lefties doing it? 

Thats always been the argument.

The City of New Orleans is removing those monuments, the mayor of Lexington says he's having them removed......just a couple of examples.......I don't have a problem since they want it done legally.

Toppling them - criminal act, period.

     I can't agree strongly enough. The supportive reactions in this thread only serve to demonstrate the fundamental disrespect the left has for the rule of law. Take these statues down the right way: without a violent mob.

Well, in the case of NC, the white supremacist-sympathizing state legislature basically told them that they can't take them down at all without their approval (and we all know that will never happen). Not saying I support it, but I can kind of understand how these people feel when their own city governments are being controlled by state-level authoritarians who claim to love "states' rights" and "individual freedom" but don't like it when liberal jurisdictions do things like this.

     Sometimes our governments fail us. I can certainly identify with the frustration, but that's what lobbying and protesting is for. If we open the door to acts of vandalism to achieve our desired ends, we're opening Pandora's box.

[Crumpets]

As long as we're talking failed regimes guilty of massive war crimes I'd like to see these get toppled too:
Lenin Statues in America
Las Vegas - outside Red Square Restaurant, Mandalay Bay Hotel - Headless
Atlantic City, New Jersey - in the Tropicana Casino
New York City - on top of the Red Square apartment building, E. Houston St. in the East Village[3]
Seattle - Fremont neighborhood (See Statue of Lenin (Seattle))
Head of Lenin, Los Angeles, California - outside a branch of the Ace Gallery, the Ace Museum, on the corner of La Brea Avenue and 4th Street.
Stalin:
A bust of Stalin is displayed at the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, Virginia.

Lenin statues in vegas/atlantic city are probably more insulting to the man than tearing the things down would be.
Also In regards to the Op the statue at hand was put up in 1924 at a height of a KKK revival .

At least Seattle should go down then along with changes at these statues in the south - as well as Stone Mountain which was carved in 1916 by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

Stacey Abrams, a Democratic candidate for GA governor, has called for removing the Confederate faces from Stone Mountain.

This would be one where I might have to draw a line. That's the largest bas relief sculpture in the world, and it's not exactly one you can put in a museum. Plus, that's one that really does have a notable place in American - not just Confederate history: "Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia." I mean, I get where they're coming from, but...

[SNJ1985]

The WWII generation hated socialism! Which is why they voted for FDR four times and thanked Democrats for Social Security by giving them control of the House for most of the century.

I was talking about culture, not economics. Many of the people who voted for FDR were culturally conservative and would not be welcome in today's left.

Also, FDR was not a ''socialist''.

[GeorgiaModerate]

As long as we're talking failed regimes guilty of massive war crimes I'd like to see these get toppled too:
Lenin Statues in America
Las Vegas - outside Red Square Restaurant, Mandalay Bay Hotel - Headless
Atlantic City, New Jersey - in the Tropicana Casino
New York City - on top of the Red Square apartment building, E. Houston St. in the East Village[3]
Seattle - Fremont neighborhood (See Statue of Lenin (Seattle))
Head of Lenin, Los Angeles, California - outside a branch of the Ace Gallery, the Ace Museum, on the corner of La Brea Avenue and 4th Street.
Stalin:
A bust of Stalin is displayed at the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, Virginia.

Lenin statues in vegas/atlantic city are probably more insulting to the man than tearing the things down would be.
Also In regards to the Op the statue at hand was put up in 1924 at a height of a KKK revival .

At least Seattle should go down then along with changes at these statues in the south - as well as Stone Mountain which was carved in 1916 by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

Stacey Abrams, a Democratic candidate for GA governor, has called for removing the Confederate faces from Stone Mountain.

This would be one where I might have to draw a line. That's the largest bas relief sculpture in the world, and it's not exactly one you can put in a museum. Plus, that's one that really does have a notable place in American - not just Confederate history: "Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia." I mean, I get where they're coming from, but...

It's been a while since I've been there, but these days I don't think most people go to Stone Mountain for its historical value.  It's really becoming just another amusement park.

[vanguard96]

As long as we're talking failed regimes guilty of massive war crimes I'd like to see these get toppled too:
Lenin Statues in America
Las Vegas - outside Red Square Restaurant, Mandalay Bay Hotel - Headless
Atlantic City, New Jersey - in the Tropicana Casino
New York City - on top of the Red Square apartment building, E. Houston St. in the East Village[3]
Seattle - Fremont neighborhood (See Statue of Lenin (Seattle))
Head of Lenin, Los Angeles, California - outside a branch of the Ace Gallery, the Ace Museum, on the corner of La Brea Avenue and 4th Street.
Stalin:
A bust of Stalin is displayed at the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, Virginia.

I don't know much about the other Lenin statues, but I know a lot about the Lenin Statue in Seattle, so let me explain why I think there's no comparison to be made here between it and the Confederate monuments:

- The statue was singled out for preservation because it had several unique features among Lenin statues that made it artistically significant.
- After being determined that it was not going to be destroyed, it still needed to be removed to the us from Slovakia specifically because Lenin was seen as the symbolic antithesis to the new government, just as the Confederate monuments are in the US.
- The statue has basically no meaning to local far-lefties, and despite Seattle having one of the largest Marxist blocs in the country (albeit one which is still tiny), I have never heard of any rally at the statue, it being associated specifically with Soviet Communism in their mind.
- To the rest of US, the statue is, like HisGrace noted about the statue in Vegas, essentially a symbol of Soviet kitsch. We decorate it for Christmas, we decorate it for the Fourth of July, and just for fun. In that regard, it is much more a symbol of our victory in the Cold War than anything Lenin ever personally achieved. It would be similar to a Statue of Robert E. Lee being put up at the US Grant Presidential library, or one of Jefferson Davis in the White House bathroom.
- To the vast majority of Seattlites, the statue represents our ability to make light of old conflicts, bury the hatchet with the former communist countries, and generally thumb our nose at McCarthyists. The important distinction is that nobody here feels any sort of historical allegiance to Lenin and, quite the opposite, see him as something worthy of mocking and messing with. If there were any statues in the South that were treated similarly, maybe I'd feel different about them being removed.

I disagree of course and feel it is a tacit acceptance of a dictator who had many people killed. Some activists also paint the hands red - I don't think that move is a joke like dressing him up - more a symbolic gesture that he has blood on his hands which is absolutely 100% true.

https://www.geekwire.com/2017/time-pull-seattles-lenin-statue-silicon-valley-venture-capitalist-takes-relics-place-wake-charlottesville-tragedy/

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Have they taken down Theodore Bilbo's picture from the MS Governor's Mansion yet?

[vanguard96]

The WWII generation hated socialism! Which is why they voted for FDR four times and thanked Democrats for Social Security by giving them control of the House for most of the century.

I was talking about culture, not economics. Many of the people who voted for FDR were culturally conservative and would not be welcome in today's left.

Also, FDR was not a ''socialist''.

FDR was a racist, state interventionist who was admired by authoritarian despots and did not seek to distance himself from them.

It was a deliberate choice by the apologists who commissioned his statue to put him in a wheelchair which he rarely appeared in and did not like to be seen in - and without the monocle either to make him more palatable for the left who so revere him.

[RINO Tom]

Actually the Greatest Generation were more often than not ardent New Dealers.

Yes, that's true. They weren't culturally left-wing, though. A lot of those who voted for Trump in 2016 had ancestors who supported Roosevelt and the New Deal. Just look at Appalachia.

Why does everyone act like the people who live in County A, State B in 2017 are the same as the ones who lived there in the early 1930s?

[ProudModerate2]

It is really remarkable that Americans are now further from achieving Lincoln's dream of national unity than they were in 1890; there are people in this thread right now who feel more animosity towards the Confederacy than did many of the men who actually fought against it.

That most of you seem to view the civil war as 'WWII on American soil' is an indictment of the American educational system.

Is absolute national unity a worthwhile goal if it means that people will have another Civil War?

Republicans failed back in the day, should have fully subjugated the south and purged this evil from coming back, instead we just had to let it fester for over 100 years as people worship traitors and slavery.

Yeah, I have direct family like this too. This is why I'm astonished that anyone thinks this is the beginning of the end for him. He might have solidified the >55% of people who hate him though.

I think it's safe to say that the number is now >60% "of people who hate him."

[GeorgiaModerate]

Since we were talking about Stone Mountain earlier: KKK’s request to burn cross on Stone Mountain denied

[Helsinkian]

And so it begins:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/08/16/jackson-washington-park-protest-presidents-slave-owners/

[Santander]

Can we kick WA out of the union already?

[Mr. Reactionary]

Can we kick WA out of the union already?

Seconded!

[Chief Justice Keef]

Uh oh watch out leftists
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/897905672741715968

[Badger]

Ahhhhhhhhh, so vandalism and destruction of property is ok when it's lefties doing it? 

Thats always been the argument.

The City of New Orleans is removing those monuments, the mayor of Lexington says he's having them removed......just a couple of examples.......I don't have a problem since they want it done legally.

Toppling them - criminal act, period.

     I can't agree strongly enough. The supportive reactions in this thread only serve to demonstrate the fundamental disrespect the left has for the rule of law. Take these statues down the right way: without a violent mob.

Well, in the case of NC, the white supremacist-sympathizing state legislature basically told them that they can't take them down at all without their approval (and we all know that will never happen). Not saying I support it, but I can kind of understand how these people feel when their own city governments are being controlled by state-level authoritarians who claim to love "states' rights" and "individual freedom" but don't like it when liberal jurisdictions do things like this.

This fact really makes me feel sympathy for this woman. Until I learned it I too thought what a flaming moron who deserves to get prosecuted. Maybe not prison time instead of probation, community service, and restitution, but still prosecuted. But the fact is her and the rest of the city's ability to democratically control such decisions without direct action has been deprived buy a racist Confederate worshipping the state government that is likewise insulated from Democratic popular will by Shameless gerrymandering.

Look, why didn't Rosa Parks just organized peacefully and democratically to desegregate the buses. Why did people have to do sit-ins at lunch counters when they could have just simply wrote their congressmen and senators? No, this woman is hardly Rosa Parks, and the presence of a Confederate statue is nowhere near as important as basic desegregation. But there is still a basic similarity involved where institutionalized racism and their symbols are protected from change through meaningful popular democracy.

Or put another way, if the legislature hadn't specifically gone to such lengths to force cities like Durham to keep their Confederate statues in place despite the willow the vast vast vast majority of his residence, no one would have needed to pull the statue down by force.

Oh, and yes, there is just a teensy teensy tiny difference between pulling down a statue and physically assaulting another human being, let alone running 20 of them down in the car

[Helsinkian]

The 2016 Green Party VP candidate argues that Washington's and Jefferson's statues need to be taken down as well:

"If you want to remove symbols of white supremacy why are you limiting it to confederacy? Yes Trump, Jefferson & Washington must be next."
--Ajamu Baraka‏
@ajamubaraka
https://twitter.com/ajamubaraka/status/897890816366137344

[HisGrace]

Look, why didn't Rosa Parks just organized peacefully and democratically to desegregate the buses. Why did people have to do sit-ins at lunch counters when they could have just simply wrote their congressmen and senators? No, this woman is hardly Rosa Parks, and the presence of a Confederate statue is nowhere near as important as basic desegregation. But there is still a basic similarity involved where institutionalized racism and their symbols are protected from change through meaningful popular democracy.

Or put another way, if the legislature hadn't specifically gone to such lengths to force cities like Durham to keep their Confederate statues in place despite the willow the vast vast vast majority of his residence, no one would have needed to pull the statue down by force.

Oh, and yes, there is just a teensy teensy tiny difference between pulling down a statue and physically assaulting another human being, let alone running 20 of them down in the car

That's why I find the "outraged" reactions in this thread so put-on, and just a desperate attempt to deflect from what happened over the weekend. Non-violent law-breaking has long been recognized as a legitimate political tactic by both sides of the political spectrum for a long time, unless we're suddenly going to start condemning Rosa Parks and even MLK, Nelson Mandela, or Gandhi.

It's not like this caused a significant amount of damage either, it's not like Eco-terrorists blowing up car dealerships where they do millions of dollars of damage even if they don't kill anyone. This was about "sending a message" rather than inflicting a monetary loss.

[HisGrace]

The 2016 Green Party VP candidate argues that Washington's and Jefferson's statues need to be taken down as well:

"If you want to remove symbols of white supremacy why are you limiting it to confederacy? Yes Trump, Jefferson & Washington must be next."
--Ajamu Baraka‏
@ajamubaraka
https://twitter.com/ajamubaraka/status/897890816366137344

I'm really worried about this since the Green Party has a really great chance of taking both chambers of Congress in 2018 and winning the White House in 2020. Thanks for warning everyone.

[Daniel909012]

Surveys say that even half of Democrats want monuments not to be removed, I am happy to know that Americans appreciate their historical and cultural value.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

As long as we're talking failed regimes guilty of massive war crimes I'd like to see these get toppled too:
Lenin Statues in America
Las Vegas - outside Red Square Restaurant, Mandalay Bay Hotel - Headless
Atlantic City, New Jersey - in the Tropicana Casino
New York City - on top of the Red Square apartment building, E. Houston St. in the East Village[3]
Seattle - Fremont neighborhood (See Statue of Lenin (Seattle))
Head of Lenin, Los Angeles, California - outside a branch of the Ace Gallery, the Ace Museum, on the corner of La Brea Avenue and 4th Street.
Stalin:
A bust of Stalin is displayed at the National D-Day Memorial in Bedford, Virginia.

Lenin statues in vegas/atlantic city are probably more insulting to the man than tearing the things down would be.
Also In regards to the Op the statue at hand was put up in 1924 at a height of a KKK revival .

At least Seattle should go down then along with changes at these statues in the south - as well as Stone Mountain which was carved in 1916 by the Daughters of the Confederacy.

Stacey Abrams, a Democratic candidate for GA governor, has called for removing the Confederate faces from Stone Mountain.

This would be one where I might have to draw a line. That's the largest bas relief sculpture in the world, and it's not exactly one you can put in a museum. Plus, that's one that really does have a notable place in American - not just Confederate history: "Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia." I mean, I get where they're coming from, but...

I was having similar sentiments, and flashback to the Taliban. And then I read this:

The Georgia code has a clear mandate for the memorial, saying it should be “preserved and protected for all time as a tribute to the bravery and heroism of the citizens of this state who suffered and died in their cause.”

Wikipedia also has this:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The good people of Georgia can blow it right off the mountain and it will be fine by me.

[Zioneer]

Surveys say that even half of Democrats want monuments not to be removed, I am happy to know that Americans appreciate their historical and cultural value.

All Confederate monuments are basically giant, expensive, participation trophies.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

This should be done more.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Oh, and yes, there is just a teensy teensy tiny difference between pulling down a statue and physically assaulting another human being, let alone running 20 of them down in the car

I don't think anyone said otherwise......oh and when are you leaving the BAL club?  You really need a red or socialist avatar,  you big lug. 

[Unapologetic Chinaperson]

Surveys say that even half of Democrats want monuments not to be removed, I am happy to know that Americans appreciate their historical and cultural value.

All Confederate monuments are basically giant, expensive, participation trophies.

Someone Turned the Confederate Memorial at the Capitol Into a Second-Place Trophy

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Hopefully Trump and co's whatabouterry irt linking the criminal scumbags of the confederacy with the American revolutionary heroes will end the "edgy" liberal trend of dismissing the American Revolution as a war between two equal evils (or even more repugnant, that the despotic British Empire represented a more "progressive" force). There's a reason all the abolitionists (Douglass et Al) cited Jefferson etc - because the philosophy of the founding fathers was one that inevitably viewed slavery as an immoral force that must be tamed (indeed, they were merely mistaken in believing it would simply wither away like magic).