Democrats who can unite the Country
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henster
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2017, 03:19:03 PM »

Seth Moulton, Tammy Duckworth, Jason Kander.
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AN63093
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2017, 05:37:50 PM »
« Edited: August 16, 2017, 05:39:45 PM by AN63093 »

None, the US is so polarized that it's impossible for anyone to unite the country.  Basically the two sides are so far apart that no matter who becomes president a large chunk of the country will hate them.

This.  We have entered an era of intense polarization, and I fear it may only become worse.  Based on current trends, I suspect the US in 20 years will be hyper-polarized, with the parties in a South African type system (i.e., racial stratification by party- there will be the "White" party, and then the party for everyone else).  All debates will eventually lead back to identity politics.  There will be debates over other stuff, like economics and national security.. but they will be on the periphery.  Sorta like global warming now- sure, it comes up now and then, but no one really cares.  I have a projected long-term electoral map for this scenario here.

I suspect this will be the case, boomers or no boomers, because I think some of the trends driving polarization (e.g., geographical self-sorting, social media, 24/7 news cycle, tendency of media to sensationalize stories or add a racial lens, etc.), are not going away any time soon.

No one candidate can "unite the country."  Even JBE wouldn't be able to do it.  This is something that goes way beyond any one person's ability to fix.  And certainly not someone like Harris or Booker.  McGovernForPrez is right; if Obama couldn't, then they won't either.

What it will take is some catastrophic event to restore a sense of common purpose, national brotherhood, shared sacrifice, etc., that cuts across class and racial lines.  Maybe a severe depression would?  A war on the scale of WW2 probably would, where people are being drafted in the millions, and for a minute you're thinking just about survival.  Stuff like racial tensions aren't exactly on the mind when you're landing on the shores of Normandy trying not to get shot.

I'm not advocating for a war of that size, but just making an observation.  We would need something on that scale, truly society changing, to take us out of this "funk."

Of course, we don't need to de-polarize for the Dems to win again (and vise versa).  With the right candidate, Dems can just boost minority turnout in Detroit and FL, flip them and win in 2020.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2017, 05:44:15 PM »

I fixed what you indited. Will we be allowed to lynch the dissenters, or will they merely be interned?
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2017, 07:12:16 PM »
« Edited: August 16, 2017, 07:13:55 PM by Statilius the Epicurean »

Honestly, I think the 'uniter' candidate would have to be a Republican. The division is being driven by white conservative cultural anxiety and only a Republican President could assuage it. Someone like a Nixon figure.

This is why Trump is so incredibly damaging to the US, he's blocking the rational aufhebung of the right's anxiety and is instead fanning the flames.
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AN63093
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2017, 07:24:27 PM »

That's putting the cart before the horse.  Politicians don't create or drive anxiety, they are products of anxiety and the prevailing background culture that existed before them. 

Trump or no Trump, current anxiety isn't going to just disappear.  It was there before him, it'll be there after him.  Only in a certain climate could a Trump-like figure even appear in the first place.  If it wasn't Trump himself, it would've been someone else that emerged out of the woodwork.

There will be no "uniter."  I said it before and will say it again- this is a structural problem in society that no one man can fix.  There won't be some "Nixon figure," that just appears on the scene, snaps his fingers, and like a deus ex machina- all this polarization disappears.

Thinking such is incredibly naive.  Sorry, but that's the simple truth, whether you choose to accept it or not.

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Lechasseur
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2017, 07:44:26 PM »

None, the US is so polarized that it's impossible for anyone to unite the country.  Basically the two sides are so far apart that no matter who becomes president a large chunk of the country will hate them.

This.  We have entered an era of intense polarization, and I fear it may only become worse.  Based on current trends, I suspect the US in 20 years will be hyper-polarized, with the parties in a South African type system (i.e., racial stratification by party- there will be the "White" party, and then the party for everyone else).  All debates will eventually lead back to identity politics.  There will be debates over other stuff, like economics and national security.. but they will be on the periphery.  Sorta like global warming now- sure, it comes up now and then, but no one really cares.  I have a projected long-term electoral map for this scenario here.

I suspect this will be the case, boomers or no boomers, because I think some of the trends driving polarization (e.g., geographical self-sorting, social media, 24/7 news cycle, tendency of media to sensationalize stories or add a racial lens, etc.), are not going away any time soon.

No one candidate can "unite the country."  Even JBE wouldn't be able to do it.  This is something that goes way beyond any one person's ability to fix.  And certainly not someone like Harris or Booker.  McGovernForPrez is right; if Obama couldn't, then they won't either.

What it will take is some catastrophic event to restore a sense of common purpose, national brotherhood, shared sacrifice, etc., that cuts across class and racial lines.  Maybe a severe depression would?  A war on the scale of WW2 probably would, where people are being drafted in the millions, and for a minute you're thinking just about survival.  Stuff like racial tensions aren't exactly on the mind when you're landing on the shores of Normandy trying not to get shot.

I'm not advocating for a war of that size, but just making an observation.  We would need something on that scale, truly society changing, to take us out of this "funk."

Of course, we don't need to de-polarize for the Dems to win again (and vise versa).  With the right candidate, Dems can just boost minority turnout in Detroit and FL, flip them and win in 2020.

That was a very good analysis, you're probably right on that
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2017, 09:17:43 PM »

That's putting the cart before the horse.  Politicians don't create or drive anxiety, they are products of anxiety and the prevailing background culture that existed before them. 

Trump or no Trump, current anxiety isn't going to just disappear.  It was there before him, it'll be there after him.  Only in a certain climate could a Trump-like figure even appear in the first place.  If it wasn't Trump himself, it would've been someone else that emerged out of the woodwork.

There will be no "uniter."  I said it before and will say it again- this is a structural problem in society that no one man can fix.  There won't be some "Nixon figure," that just appears on the scene, snaps his fingers, and like a deus ex machina- all this polarization disappears.

Thinking such is incredibly naive.  Sorry, but that's the simple truth, whether you choose to accept it or not.

You're putting words in my mouth.
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Lord Admirale
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2017, 09:19:26 PM »


Yes, because if there's one potential candidate who could unite the country as President, it's a cheap Obama impersonator who is hated by a significant portion of his own party for being a shill for Big Pharma. Peak Atlas #Analysis right here.
Source on that, Cenk? Then I'll respond.
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Beet
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2017, 09:37:19 PM »
« Edited: August 16, 2017, 09:38:57 PM by Beet »

None, the US is so polarized that it's impossible for anyone to unite the country.  Basically the two sides are so far apart that no matter who becomes president a large chunk of the country will hate them.

This.  We have entered an era of intense polarization, and I fear it may only become worse.  Based on current trends, I suspect the US in 20 years will be hyper-polarized, with the parties in a South African type system (i.e., racial stratification by party- there will be the "White" party, and then the party for everyone else).  All debates will eventually lead back to identity politics.  There will be debates over other stuff, like economics and national security.. but they will be on the periphery.  Sorta like global warming now- sure, it comes up now and then, but no one really cares.  I have a projected long-term electoral map for this scenario here.

I suspect this will be the case, boomers or no boomers, because I think some of the trends driving polarization (e.g., geographical self-sorting, social media, 24/7 news cycle, tendency of media to sensationalize stories or add a racial lens, etc.), are not going away any time soon.

No one candidate can "unite the country."  Even JBE wouldn't be able to do it.  This is something that goes way beyond any one person's ability to fix.  And certainly not someone like Harris or Booker.  McGovernForPrez is right; if Obama couldn't, then they won't either.

What it will take is some catastrophic event to restore a sense of common purpose, national brotherhood, shared sacrifice, etc., that cuts across class and racial lines.  Maybe a severe depression would?  A war on the scale of WW2 probably would, where people are being drafted in the millions, and for a minute you're thinking just about survival.  Stuff like racial tensions aren't exactly on the mind when you're landing on the shores of Normandy trying not to get shot.

I'm not advocating for a war of that size, but just making an observation.  We would need something on that scale, truly society changing, to take us out of this "funk."

Of course, we don't need to de-polarize for the Dems to win again (and vise versa).  With the right candidate, Dems can just boost minority turnout in Detroit and FL, flip them and win in 2020.

Aren't you one of the ones advocating a nuclear war with North Korea? As much as I hate polarization, I'd prefer polarization to tens of millions of people dying, thanks. I've already said I'd rather the Republicans control things for 100 years than that.

Also, since no one will attack us, we'd have to start it, and I'd caution the risks of turning into Nazi Germany for the sake of uniting the country. The long term consequences of such a thing are not just gonna be a repeat of the fairy tale past.
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Lord Admirale
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« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2017, 09:42:45 PM »


Yes, because if there's one potential candidate who could unite the country as President, it's a cheap Obama impersonator who is hated by a significant portion of his own party for being a shill for Big Pharma. Peak Atlas #Analysis right here.
Source on that, Cenk? Then I'll respond.

Cenk? What are you even talking about my dude?

Or not, just wanted a source for your claims on Cory Booker "being a shill for Big Pharma." Smiley
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Lord Admirale
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« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2017, 09:54:57 PM »


Yes, because if there's one potential candidate who could unite the country as President, it's a cheap Obama impersonator who is hated by a significant portion of his own party for being a shill for Big Pharma. Peak Atlas #Analysis right here.
Source on that, Cenk? Then I'll respond.

Cenk? What are you even talking about my dude?

Or not, just wanted a source for your claims on Cory Booker "being a shill for Big Pharma." Smiley

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that he is or isn't, I'm merely pointing out that there are many leftists who seem him as such. I'd be more interested in hearing your explanation as to how he'd "unite the country".
"Leftists" don't make up a majority of the Democratic Party as indicated by Sanders' performance in the primaries, while racial minorities do. Booker's appeal to minorities, combined with appeal to center to center-left (and even pure liberals) voters, will help him carry the south, the midwest, the northeast (minus Massachusetts, Vermont, and maybe New Hampshire + Maine), and secure the nomination. From there, as Booker is a moderate Democrat, he could run a dynamic campaign on working with both Democrats and Republicans and using Trump's low approvals to help boost support with moderate Republicans. The only groups that are alienated are the far-right and maybe the far-left, but those groups can never be pleased unless someone "ideologically pure" from their belief set is elected. Now granted, this is easier said than done in a much more polarized and partisan America, but Booker has the potential to pull it off. Conversely, he has much greater potential to unite the country compare to someone like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren could (or for the right, Jeff Sessions or Mike Pence).
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Canis
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2017, 10:01:55 PM »


Yes, because if there's one potential candidate who could unite the country as President, it's a cheap Obama impersonator who is hated by a significant portion of his own party for being a shill for Big Pharma. Peak Atlas #Analysis right here.
Source on that, Cenk? Then I'll respond.

Cenk? What are you even talking about my dude?

Or not, just wanted a source for your claims on Cory Booker "being a shill for Big Pharma." Smiley
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/democrats-havent-learned-cory-booker-chooses-wall_us_5879119ee4b077a19d180d45
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AN63093
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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2017, 11:00:11 PM »

That's putting the cart before the horse.  Politicians don't create or drive anxiety, they are products of anxiety and the prevailing background culture that existed before them. 

Trump or no Trump, current anxiety isn't going to just disappear.  It was there before him, it'll be there after him.  Only in a certain climate could a Trump-like figure even appear in the first place.  If it wasn't Trump himself, it would've been someone else that emerged out of the woodwork.

There will be no "uniter."  I said it before and will say it again- this is a structural problem in society that no one man can fix.  There won't be some "Nixon figure," that just appears on the scene, snaps his fingers, and like a deus ex machina- all this polarization disappears.

Thinking such is incredibly naive.  Sorry, but that's the simple truth, whether you choose to accept it or not.

You're putting words in my mouth.

No, I'm not.  You had two points; a) that the type of candidate that could end the anxiety would have to be a R, and b) that Trump is not helping matters by "fanning the flames."

My response to (a) was that no such R either exists now, will exist, or even can exist, and in fact, as the problem is greater than any one person can effectively do anything about, your hypothetical is meaningless, even as a purely academic thought exercise.  But I suppose, if it makes you happy, I would agree that yes, in the infinitely small probability that this messiah emerges.. even though this is all rather silly and quantifying such a thing is impossible.. he very well may be more likely to be a R.

My response to (b) was that, while perhaps true to some degree, is a bad case of missing the forest for the trees.
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AN63093
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« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2017, 11:02:06 PM »

None, the US is so polarized that it's impossible for anyone to unite the country.  Basically the two sides are so far apart that no matter who becomes president a large chunk of the country will hate them.

This.  We have entered an era of intense polarization, and I fear it may only become worse.  Based on current trends, I suspect the US in 20 years will be hyper-polarized, with the parties in a South African type system (i.e., racial stratification by party- there will be the "White" party, and then the party for everyone else).  All debates will eventually lead back to identity politics.  There will be debates over other stuff, like economics and national security.. but they will be on the periphery.  Sorta like global warming now- sure, it comes up now and then, but no one really cares.  I have a projected long-term electoral map for this scenario here.

I suspect this will be the case, boomers or no boomers, because I think some of the trends driving polarization (e.g., geographical self-sorting, social media, 24/7 news cycle, tendency of media to sensationalize stories or add a racial lens, etc.), are not going away any time soon.

No one candidate can "unite the country."  Even JBE wouldn't be able to do it.  This is something that goes way beyond any one person's ability to fix.  And certainly not someone like Harris or Booker.  McGovernForPrez is right; if Obama couldn't, then they won't either.

What it will take is some catastrophic event to restore a sense of common purpose, national brotherhood, shared sacrifice, etc., that cuts across class and racial lines.  Maybe a severe depression would?  A war on the scale of WW2 probably would, where people are being drafted in the millions, and for a minute you're thinking just about survival.  Stuff like racial tensions aren't exactly on the mind when you're landing on the shores of Normandy trying not to get shot.

I'm not advocating for a war of that size, but just making an observation.  We would need something on that scale, truly society changing, to take us out of this "funk."

Of course, we don't need to de-polarize for the Dems to win again (and vise versa).  With the right candidate, Dems can just boost minority turnout in Detroit and FL, flip them and win in 2020.

Aren't you one of the ones advocating a nuclear war with North Korea? As much as I hate polarization, I'd prefer polarization to tens of millions of people dying, thanks. I've already said I'd rather the Republicans control things for 100 years than that.

Also, since no one will attack us, we'd have to start it, and I'd caution the risks of turning into Nazi Germany for the sake of uniting the country. The long term consequences of such a thing are not just gonna be a repeat of the fairy tale past.

Beet, I think you have me confused with someone else.  I have not advocated for a nuclear war with North Korea.
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catographer
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2017, 11:18:06 PM »

Impossible for anybody to "unite the country" short of another 9/11. Each side will demonize the other side mercilessly. I give credit to Republicans who claim that Democrats would call any GOP President racist, let alone Trump. While I think Trump is uniquely bad, in a way that Bush or Reagan were not, it's true that no matter who becomes President, Democrats and Republicans will find a way to demonize them regardless.
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GoTfan
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« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2017, 01:27:51 AM »

Someone like Sherrod Brown or Tammy Baldwin. Midwestern progressives with establishment connections. Cory Booker has no chance with the activist base (Despite the borderline Republican beliefs of Blue Dog Moderate, who seems fine with Democrats being right-wingers). Same goes for people like Manchin (who's nomination WILL trigger a left-wing third party challenge).

But even then, it'd be an uphill battle for them. There are always going to be unsatisfied people.
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McGovernForPrez
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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2017, 07:42:14 AM »


Yes, because if there's one potential candidate who could unite the country as President, it's a cheap Obama impersonator who is hated by a significant portion of his own party for being a shill for Big Pharma. Peak Atlas #Analysis right here.
Source on that, Cenk? Then I'll respond.

Cenk? What are you even talking about my dude?

Or not, just wanted a source for your claims on Cory Booker "being a shill for Big Pharma." Smiley

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else that he is or isn't, I'm merely pointing out that there are many leftists who seem him as such. I'd be more interested in hearing your explanation as to how he'd "unite the country".
"Leftists" don't make up a majority of the Democratic Party as indicated by Sanders' performance in the primaries, while racial minorities do. Booker's appeal to minorities, combined with appeal to center to center-left (and even pure liberals) voters, will help him carry the south, the midwest, the northeast (minus Massachusetts, Vermont, and maybe New Hampshire + Maine), and secure the nomination. From there, as Booker is a moderate Democrat, he could run a dynamic campaign on working with both Democrats and Republicans and using Trump's low approvals to help boost support with moderate Republicans. The only groups that are alienated are the far-right and maybe the far-left, but those groups can never be pleased unless someone "ideologically pure" from their belief set is elected. Now granted, this is easier said than done in a much more polarized and partisan America, but Booker has the potential to pull it off. Conversely, he has much greater potential to unite the country compare to someone like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren could (or for the right, Jeff Sessions or Mike Pence).

This is absolutely delusional. This country'so right wing would never vote for Booker. We've already learned this lesson through Obama. Racial divides in America are still too large for a black man to unite the country. Obama is a way stronger candidate than Booker so if he couldn't do it why the hell could. Booker? There's no guateentee Booker could even unite the Democratic party nevermind the entire country. He's already alienated himself from the Sanders base and it isn't like he has the name recognition and popularity to get all of the Clinton voters. The Democratic party is moving left side he'll end up in the dust.
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« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2017, 10:09:50 AM »

Bloomberg could unite the country in opposition to him.
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Lord Admirale
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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2017, 12:10:16 PM »

Someone like Sherrod Brown or Tammy Baldwin. Midwestern progressives with establishment connections. Cory Booker has no chance with the activist base (Despite the borderline Republican beliefs of Blue Dog Moderate, who seems fine with Democrats being right-wingers). Same goes for people like Manchin (who's nomination WILL trigger a left-wing third party challenge).

But even then, it'd be an uphill battle for them. There are always going to be unsatisfied people.
"Borderline Republican" lmao that actually made me laugh. I didn't know I pissed you off that much that you have to follow me around and take a piss on Cory Booker and Joe Manchin. Sorry for not blindly subscribing to Sanders' """revolution"""" that appeals to a very small, but loud, political minority in the Democratic Party.
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Lord Admirale
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« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2017, 03:23:26 PM »

Oh, and by the way, this whole rise in ideological purity perpetrated by people like that Australian guy is what cost the GOP their strongholds on New Jersey, Connecticut, and other moderate suburban areas back during Gingrich's """revolution""" with his ideological purity.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2017, 05:56:00 PM »

Someone like Sherrod Brown or Tammy Baldwin. Midwestern progressives with establishment connections. Cory Booker has no chance with the activist base (Despite the borderline Republican beliefs of Blue Dog Moderate, who seems fine with Democrats being right-wingers). Same goes for people like Manchin (who's nomination WILL trigger a left-wing third party challenge).

But even then, it'd be an uphill battle for them. There are always going to be unsatisfied people.
"Borderline Republican" lmao that actually made me laugh. I didn't know I pissed you off that much that you have to follow me around and take a piss on Cory Booker and Joe Manchin. Sorry for not blindly subscribing to Sanders' """revolution"""" that appeals to a very small, but loud, political minority in the Democratic Party.
Sanders also brought an interesting coalition of the Democratic doves, activists, progressives, democratic socialists, blue dogs, libertarians(particularly on the Federal Reserve, guns, and privacy/spying), and nationalists, most of which are usually at opposite ends from each other.
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2017, 06:01:03 PM »

Someone like Sherrod Brown or Tammy Baldwin. Midwestern progressives with establishment connections. Cory Booker has no chance with the activist base (Despite the borderline Republican beliefs of Blue Dog Moderate, who seems fine with Democrats being right-wingers). Same goes for people like Manchin (who's nomination WILL trigger a left-wing third party challenge).

But even then, it'd be an uphill battle for them. There are always going to be unsatisfied people.
"Borderline Republican" lmao that actually made me laugh. I didn't know I pissed you off that much that you have to follow me around and take a piss on Cory Booker and Joe Manchin. Sorry for not blindly subscribing to Sanders' """revolution"""" that appeals to a very small, but loud, political minority in the Democratic Party.
Sanders also brought an interesting coalition of the Democratic doves, activists, progressives, democratic socialists, blue dogs, libertarians(particularly on the Federal Reserve, guns, and privacy/spying), and nationalists, most of which are usually at opposite ends from each other.
I don't know that many blue dogs who like Bernie.
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Lord Admirale
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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2017, 09:00:55 PM »

Someone like Sherrod Brown or Tammy Baldwin. Midwestern progressives with establishment connections. Cory Booker has no chance with the activist base (Despite the borderline Republican beliefs of Blue Dog Moderate, who seems fine with Democrats being right-wingers). Same goes for people like Manchin (who's nomination WILL trigger a left-wing third party challenge).

But even then, it'd be an uphill battle for them. There are always going to be unsatisfied people.
"Borderline Republican" lmao that actually made me laugh. I didn't know I pissed you off that much that you have to follow me around and take a piss on Cory Booker and Joe Manchin. Sorry for not blindly subscribing to Sanders' """revolution"""" that appeals to a very small, but loud, political minority in the Democratic Party.
Sanders also brought an interesting coalition of the Democratic doves, activists, progressives, democratic socialists, blue dogs, libertarians(particularly on the Federal Reserve, guns, and privacy/spying), and nationalists, most of which are usually at opposite ends from each other.
I don't know that many blue dogs who like Bernie.
Bernie is to Blue Dogs as Gingrich is to Rockefeller Republicans.
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Medal506
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2017, 11:15:54 PM »

John Delaney (the first democrat to announce a run for the presidency in 2020) and Joe Machine. That's pretty much it.
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AN63093
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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2017, 11:49:59 PM »

Well put.  Completely agree.
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