Is Bernie aggressive enough to take on Trump?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Bernie can debate the actual issues better than almost anyone. Of course most politicians seem to avoid talking too much about the actual issues.

I personally don't think Bernie was that great of a debater. I remember when he was confronted with a small business owner who was complaining about Obamacare; she was just large enough to have to cover the cost but small enough to feel the pinch. His response was basically "Yep, sorry about that, you gotta pay".

Honest, but hardly a masterful response in either eloquence or politics.

Well, it all depends on how honest you like your politicians.

[ProgressiveCanadian]

Stupid thread with even sadder results in the poll, smh....

[Shadows]

Bernie can debate the actual issues better than almost anyone. Of course most politicians seem to avoid talking too much about the actual issues.

I personally don't think Bernie was that great of a debater. I remember when he was confronted with a small business owner who was complaining about Obamacare; she was just large enough to have to cover the cost but small enough to feel the pinch. His response was basically "Yep, sorry about that, you gotta pay".

Honest, but hardly a masterful response in either eloquence or politics.

That was an honest & perfect answer. Sanders enquired about how many employees that person has, mentioned that Texas didn't expand Medicaid & that employees maybe one sickness away from bankruptcy or death. He also talked about unfair competition the woman would enjoy if she didn't have to buy health insurance while the others would & that would allow her to decrease prices & get a bigger share.

That was a great answer for most literate people. Unless you are a right wing extremist & you want to hear "Yes that policy is trash" - In other words if you want partisan hackery. Sanders also mentioned how Single payer decoupled health insurance for employers & would solve such problems. You can't go better than that.

[Shadows]

Regardless, the democratic party absolutely should NOT nominate a 78 year old socialist as their candidate in 2020. This ought to be obvious even to the leftist amongst democrats. At least find someone who is younger and an actual democrat.

Basic requirements for a democratic candidate in 2020:

1) You can be a leftist but DO NOT call yourself a socialist. Right wing media will tear you to shreds with their fearmongering in a general election. Liberal is fine. Progressive is fine. Socialist is not. Too many people remember the cold war.

2) Be a longtime member of the democratic party.

3) Be someone who is actually (or has been) elected to office as a democrat. I'm pretty sure the huge lust for complete political outsiders will have been markedly reduced after the Trump fiasco. At least it should have.

4) You don't have to be young, but you probably shouldn't be 8 years older than the guy who currently set the record for being the oldest newly elected president of all time.


As for policies, I would ask for this:

5) Don't be an isolationist, please. Democrats can't take this route. It doesn't end well. Please do oppose unhinged free trade, but replace it with regulated trade, not no trade. Likewise, please do oppose unregulated neo-liberal economics at home, but replace it with common sense regulation, not an abolishment of the free market.

6) Universal health care. It's the only way folks, and more or more people are coming to terms with it. Obamacare will NEVER work. The right wingers are actually right about that. Too bad that their "solution" is even worse. Universal health care works in the entire civilized world that is not the US. It covers everybody at a significantly reduced cost. Health care spending in the US is about double what it is in a lot of European countries with universal health care.

7) Continue the fight for equal rights. It is an incredibly important fight. But avoid playing up the identity politics, it drives people away. And don't be so goddamn sensitive. Racism and bigotry is far better fought with arguments than with moral outrage.

There's lots more but I'm veering too far off topic. I was never really on topic to begin with, I guess. Sorry about that.

Barrack Obama was a Muslim for most tea party Republicans & most Right wing people still consider him a far left socialist. And he won. Martin Luther King was an avowed democratic socialist. Most American people overwhelmingly support all of Sanders' democratic socialist policies. FDR was well to the left of Bernie, much more left & "socialistic".

This idea that one has to be a long term Democrat to be considered is sure shot recipe for a loss. Around 40-45% are Independents, the lion's share among the voters. And most of the young people are Independents. It is increasing & a solid majority. Ronald Reagan was the oldest President ever & was considered unfit by many & is considered the greatest. FDR died in office & is easily the greatest ever. The greatest presidents have been older. And Sanders is incredibly fit.

The Right wing media = Conspiracy Theories + Fox news which caters to old racist uber right wing hacks, most of whom will NEVER for any Democrat. If Democrats start thinking about Fox news while nominating candidates, they will 100% lose in 2020.

[BlueSwan]

Regardless, the democratic party absolutely should NOT nominate a 78 year old socialist as their candidate in 2020. This ought to be obvious even to the leftist amongst democrats. At least find someone who is younger and an actual democrat.

Basic requirements for a democratic candidate in 2020:

1) You can be a leftist but DO NOT call yourself a socialist. Right wing media will tear you to shreds with their fearmongering in a general election. Liberal is fine. Progressive is fine. Socialist is not. Too many people remember the cold war.

2) Be a longtime member of the democratic party.

3) Be someone who is actually (or has been) elected to office as a democrat. I'm pretty sure the huge lust for complete political outsiders will have been markedly reduced after the Trump fiasco. At least it should have.

4) You don't have to be young, but you probably shouldn't be 8 years older than the guy who currently set the record for being the oldest newly elected president of all time.


As for policies, I would ask for this:

5) Don't be an isolationist, please. Democrats can't take this route. It doesn't end well. Please do oppose unhinged free trade, but replace it with regulated trade, not no trade. Likewise, please do oppose unregulated neo-liberal economics at home, but replace it with common sense regulation, not an abolishment of the free market.

6) Universal health care. It's the only way folks, and more or more people are coming to terms with it. Obamacare will NEVER work. The right wingers are actually right about that. Too bad that their "solution" is even worse. Universal health care works in the entire civilized world that is not the US. It covers everybody at a significantly reduced cost. Health care spending in the US is about double what it is in a lot of European countries with universal health care.

7) Continue the fight for equal rights. It is an incredibly important fight. But avoid playing up the identity politics, it drives people away. And don't be so goddamn sensitive. Racism and bigotry is far better fought with arguments than with moral outrage.

There's lots more but I'm veering too far off topic. I was never really on topic to begin with, I guess. Sorry about that.

Barrack Obama was a Muslim for most tea party Republicans & most Right wing people still consider him a far left socialist. And he won. Martin Luther King was an avowed democratic socialist. Most American people overwhelmingly support all of Sanders' democratic socialist policies. FDR was well to the left of Bernie, much more left & "socialistic".

This idea that one has to be a long term Democrat to be considered is sure shot recipe for a loss. Around 40-45% are Independents, the lion's share among the voters. And most of the young people are Independents. It is increasing & a solid majority. Ronald Reagan was the oldest President ever & was considered unfit by many & is considered the greatest. FDR died in office & is easily the greatest ever. The greatest presidents have been older. And Sanders is incredibly fit.

The Right wing media = Conspiracy Theories + Fox news which caters to old racist uber right wing hacks, most of whom will NEVER for any Democrat. If Democrats start thinking about Fox news while nominating candidates, they will 100% lose in 2020.

I think you simultaneously over- and underestimate the right wing smear machine. The reason why their smear campaign against Obama didn't work was because it did not ring true to rational or moderate people (because it wasn't true). Only those who would never vote for ANY democrat bought into it. A smear campaign based on Bernie's self-described socialism is an entirely different story altogether. A lot of particularly older centrists, independents and moderates will never vote for someone who calls himself a socialist and there simply aren't enough millennials to win that fight. The right wing smear machine would take advantage of that in an extremely effective way. Of that I have no doubt.

[Shadows]

Regardless, the democratic party absolutely should NOT nominate a 78 year old socialist as their candidate in 2020. This ought to be obvious even to the leftist amongst democrats. At least find someone who is younger and an actual democrat.

Basic requirements for a democratic candidate in 2020:

1) You can be a leftist but DO NOT call yourself a socialist. Right wing media will tear you to shreds with their fearmongering in a general election. Liberal is fine. Progressive is fine. Socialist is not. Too many people remember the cold war.

2) Be a longtime member of the democratic party.

3) Be someone who is actually (or has been) elected to office as a democrat. I'm pretty sure the huge lust for complete political outsiders will have been markedly reduced after the Trump fiasco. At least it should have.

4) You don't have to be young, but you probably shouldn't be 8 years older than the guy who currently set the record for being the oldest newly elected president of all time.


As for policies, I would ask for this:

5) Don't be an isolationist, please. Democrats can't take this route. It doesn't end well. Please do oppose unhinged free trade, but replace it with regulated trade, not no trade. Likewise, please do oppose unregulated neo-liberal economics at home, but replace it with common sense regulation, not an abolishment of the free market.

6) Universal health care. It's the only way folks, and more or more people are coming to terms with it. Obamacare will NEVER work. The right wingers are actually right about that. Too bad that their "solution" is even worse. Universal health care works in the entire civilized world that is not the US. It covers everybody at a significantly reduced cost. Health care spending in the US is about double what it is in a lot of European countries with universal health care.

7) Continue the fight for equal rights. It is an incredibly important fight. But avoid playing up the identity politics, it drives people away. And don't be so goddamn sensitive. Racism and bigotry is far better fought with arguments than with moral outrage.

There's lots more but I'm veering too far off topic. I was never really on topic to begin with, I guess. Sorry about that.

Barrack Obama was a Muslim for most tea party Republicans & most Right wing people still consider him a far left socialist. And he won. Martin Luther King was an avowed democratic socialist. Most American people overwhelmingly support all of Sanders' democratic socialist policies. FDR was well to the left of Bernie, much more left & "socialistic".

This idea that one has to be a long term Democrat to be considered is sure shot recipe for a loss. Around 40-45% are Independents, the lion's share among the voters. And most of the young people are Independents. It is increasing & a solid majority. Ronald Reagan was the oldest President ever & was considered unfit by many & is considered the greatest. FDR died in office & is easily the greatest ever. The greatest presidents have been older. And Sanders is incredibly fit.

The Right wing media = Conspiracy Theories + Fox news which caters to old racist uber right wing hacks, most of whom will NEVER for any Democrat. If Democrats start thinking about Fox news while nominating candidates, they will 100% lose in 2020.

I think you simultaneously over- and underestimate the right wing smear machine. The reason why their smear campaign against Obama didn't work was because it did not ring true to rational or moderate people (because it wasn't true). Only those who would never vote for ANY democrat bought into it. A smear campaign based on Bernie's self-described socialism is an entirely different story altogether. A lot of particularly older centrists, independents and moderates will never vote for someone who calls himself a socialist and there simply aren't enough millennials to win that fight. The right wing smear machine would take advantage of that in an extremely effective way. Of that I have no doubt.

I am predicting here that Sanders will the largest majority of any Presidential candidate post Reagan bringing the Reagan. As someone who has spent a lot of time studying FDR through multiple books & documentaries, I am convinced he will bring the realignment.

Every poll shows him winning in a landslide. He is winning Independents by a massive margin in every poll. And he won by Independents by a landslide margin in the Democratic primary. Centrists & Moderates don't exist in the real world. They are very small in quantity. Most of the so-called undecided voters don't vote based on Capitalism, Socialism. The most important factor for many of them is the personal connect, honesty, authenticity of the voters & how they line up in a key important issues.

The people who won't vote for a Democratic Socialist will not vote for any Democrat (& these people don't exist out of Internet forums. Studies have shown that Libertarians barely exist but a large chunk of voters are economically liberal but socially moderate/conservative/tired of identity politics/tired of establishment politics, lobbyists.

[America's Sweetheart ❤/𝕿𝖍𝖊 𝕭𝖔𝖔𝖙𝖞 𝖂𝖆𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖗]

I think so, in fact, sometimes he comes across as too angry.

[Frozen Sky Ever Why]

Stupid thread with even sadder results in the poll, smh....

My thread is absolutely not stupid, unless you wish to cite specific examples of Bernie debating someone like Trump and coming off as the victor to the public. Until then it's a legitimate question.

[DrScholl]

He has a limited vocabulary in debates and resorts to going into stump speeches instead of actually answering questions in detail, which is similar to what Trump does. Trump would attack Sanders and I think that would be enough to cancel out Trump's own lack of focus on actual issues. With that said, I could see focus groups voting plurality "neither" on who won such a debate.

[TheSaint250]

I'd say yes because Trump makes a fool out of himself during debates.  Sanders flounders horribly and looks like a buffoon when he's challenged directly, but Trump wouldn't be able to bring the heat.

[Lord Wreath]

Bernie can debate the actual issues better than almost anyone. Of course most politicians seem to avoid talking too much about the actual issues.

I personally don't think Bernie was that great of a debater. I remember when he was confronted with a small business owner who was complaining about Obamacare; she was just large enough to have to cover the cost but small enough to feel the pinch. His response was basically "Yep, sorry about that, you gotta pay".

Honest, but hardly a masterful response in either eloquence or politics.

That was an honest & perfect answer. Sanders enquired about how many employees that person has, mentioned that Texas didn't expand Medicaid & that employees maybe one sickness away from bankruptcy or death. He also talked about unfair competition the woman would enjoy if she didn't have to buy health insurance while the others would & that would allow her to decrease prices & get a bigger share.

That was a great answer for most literate people. Unless you are a right wing extremist & you want to hear "Yes that policy is trash" - In other words if you want partisan hackery. Sanders also mentioned how Single payer decoupled health insurance for employers & would solve such problems. You can't go better than that.

Wow aggressive much. Sorry I insulted your great saviour, Lord Sanders! The reality is that when it comes to small business, Sanders showed how arrogant and out of touch he was by lecturing the woman about her social responsibility rather than trying to understand her plight. It was his attitude that was the problem.

[Lord Wreath]

Regardless, the democratic party absolutely should NOT nominate a 78 year old socialist as their candidate in 2020. This ought to be obvious even to the leftist amongst democrats. At least find someone who is younger and an actual democrat.

Basic requirements for a democratic candidate in 2020:

1) You can be a leftist but DO NOT call yourself a socialist. Right wing media will tear you to shreds with their fearmongering in a general election. Liberal is fine. Progressive is fine. Socialist is not. Too many people remember the cold war.

2) Be a longtime member of the democratic party.

3) Be someone who is actually (or has been) elected to office as a democrat. I'm pretty sure the huge lust for complete political outsiders will have been markedly reduced after the Trump fiasco. At least it should have.

4) You don't have to be young, but you probably shouldn't be 8 years older than the guy who currently set the record for being the oldest newly elected president of all time.


As for policies, I would ask for this:

5) Don't be an isolationist, please. Democrats can't take this route. It doesn't end well. Please do oppose unhinged free trade, but replace it with regulated trade, not no trade. Likewise, please do oppose unregulated neo-liberal economics at home, but replace it with common sense regulation, not an abolishment of the free market.

6) Universal health care. It's the only way folks, and more or more people are coming to terms with it. Obamacare will NEVER work. The right wingers are actually right about that. Too bad that their "solution" is even worse. Universal health care works in the entire civilized world that is not the US. It covers everybody at a significantly reduced cost. Health care spending in the US is about double what it is in a lot of European countries with universal health care.

7) Continue the fight for equal rights. It is an incredibly important fight. But avoid playing up the identity politics, it drives people away. And don't be so goddamn sensitive. Racism and bigotry is far better fought with arguments than with moral outrage.

There's lots more but I'm veering too far off topic. I was never really on topic to begin with, I guess. Sorry about that.

Barrack Obama was a Muslim for most tea party Republicans & most Right wing people still consider him a far left socialist. And he won. Martin Luther King was an avowed democratic socialist. Most American people overwhelmingly support all of Sanders' democratic socialist policies. FDR was well to the left of Bernie, much more left & "socialistic".

This idea that one has to be a long term Democrat to be considered is sure shot recipe for a loss. Around 40-45% are Independents, the lion's share among the voters. And most of the young people are Independents. It is increasing & a solid majority. Ronald Reagan was the oldest President ever & was considered unfit by many & is considered the greatest. FDR died in office & is easily the greatest ever. The greatest presidents have been older. And Sanders is incredibly fit.

The Right wing media = Conspiracy Theories + Fox news which caters to old racist uber right wing hacks, most of whom will NEVER for any Democrat. If Democrats start thinking about Fox news while nominating candidates, they will 100% lose in 2020.

I think you simultaneously over- and underestimate the right wing smear machine. The reason why their smear campaign against Obama didn't work was because it did not ring true to rational or moderate people (because it wasn't true). Only those who would never vote for ANY democrat bought into it. A smear campaign based on Bernie's self-described socialism is an entirely different story altogether. A lot of particularly older centrists, independents and moderates will never vote for someone who calls himself a socialist and there simply aren't enough millennials to win that fight. The right wing smear machine would take advantage of that in an extremely effective way. Of that I have no doubt.

I am predicting here that Sanders will the largest majority of any Presidential candidate post Reagan bringing the Reagan. As someone who has spent a lot of time studying FDR through multiple books & documentaries, I am convinced he will bring the realignment.

Every poll shows him winning in a landslide. He is winning Independents by a massive margin in every poll. And he won by Independents by a landslide margin in the Democratic primary. Centrists & Moderates don't exist in the real world. They are very small in quantity. Most of the so-called undecided voters don't vote based on Capitalism, Socialism. The most important factor for many of them is the personal connect, honesty, authenticity of the voters & how they line up in a key important issues.

The people who won't vote for a Democratic Socialist will not vote for any Democrat (& these people don't exist out of Internet forums. Studies have shown that Libertarians barely exist but a large chunk of voters are economically liberal but socially moderate/conservative/tired of identity politics/tired of establishment politics, lobbyists.

That means zip. Because he was never going to be the nominee, Republicans didn't put much effort into attacking him, especially in the debates; you'd expect someone removed from scrutiny to do well in polls.

And by the way, you put waaaaaaay too much faith in primary-season polls. I can recall other 'sure-winners' in early polls like Carter, Nixon, and Dukakis who were up by double digits or more who then went on to squeak or lose their election.