Abortion

[CTguy]

Sometimes I think I am an ultra-conservative/libertarian in the sense that I think the government should be so much smaller and it would make things so much better.

If we had a smaller government, we wouldn't need the morality police getting involved in abortions, gay marriages, affirmative action....  it would all be private and as capitalists we could choose to boycott institutions we don't agree with.  I don't think the government should be involved in issues like marriage or abortion at all.  

The idea that you are taxed differently or receive different benefits because you are married is a concept that is different than most western societies where you are considered an individual first.

[JohnFKennedy]

yikes, what is the currency of Sweden? I thought it was part of the EU?

that is ridiculous, doesn't sweden have a really high standard of living though?

[Gustaf]

yikes, what is the currency of Sweden? I thought it was part of the EU?

that is ridiculous, doesn't sweden have a really high standard of living though?

We're part of the EU, yes, unfortuantely, but not of the EMU. Like you people. We do have a high standard of living, our GDP is just above the average of EU-members.

[JohnFKennedy]

heh, was just wondering if the people see so little of the money they earn.....

[Gustaf]

heh, was just wondering if the people see so little of the money they earn.....

They don't know about since all the money is deducted before they get it. So most people aren't really aware of how much it is...we get free school and health care and so on though, so it isn't all bad.

[JohnFKennedy]

we get free schooling and healthcare that is paid for through taxes so i suppose in a way we pay for it and we aren't THAT highly taxed.

[Gustaf]

we get free schooling and healthcare that is paid for through taxes so i suppose in a way we pay for it and we aren't THAT highly taxed.

Well...shut up.

j/k...

[12th Doctor]

heh, was just wondering if the people see so little of the money they earn.....

There are quite a few peopl ein this country who do see that little amount of money from what they earn and the aren't the super-rich either.  Many of them are people who make about $120,000 per year.  Not poor, but certainly not fabulously wealthy especially if you live in an urban area.

[Gustaf]

heh, was just wondering if the people see so little of the money they earn.....

There are quite a few peopl ein this country who do see that little amount of money from what they earn and the aren't the super-rich either.  Many of them are people who make about $120,000 per year.  Not poor, but certainly not fabulously wealthy especially if you live in an urban area.

People like that lose about 66% of their money in Sweden. Or rather...

[JohnFKennedy]

that is quite a lot of money in my opinion soulty.....

[12th Doctor]

that is quite a lot of money in my opinion soulty.....

Well, when you consider hat the salery of a teacher and a firefighter in NYC combined is about $90,000 per year, that's not a lot of money.  Especially if you live in New York.  But you would be in the top 10% of income earners.

[Gustaf]

The average income in Sweden is 19 000 SEK, roughly 2 550 dollars, monthly.

[JohnFKennedy]

2550 a month?

that times 12 is $30600 i think so that is pretty low.....

[Gustaf]

2550 a month?

that times 12 is $30600 i think so that is pretty low.....

Ah, I misread. It was the annual income, with another zero added. So it's roughly 194 000 divided by 7.5 dollars a year. So it should probably be about 23 000 dollars a year.

[12th Doctor]

The average income in Sweden is 19 000 SEK, roughly 2 550 dollars, monthly.

Is that before or after taxes?  At anyrate, I think that the median in the US is about $28,000 or so.  But that isn't really much to live on.  Also, that is a terribly scewed number, because people in urban, sub-urban, rural and ulra-rural areas in this country have different standards of living and thus different income levels and needs.  The city person tends to have a larger income.  I would say that in most rural areas, if you wanted to make a good living for yourself, your spouse and three children, then you would probably need about $40,000 per year.  Living in the suburbs, it is about $60,000-$70,000 per year.  This is before taxes of course.

[Gustaf]

The average income in Sweden is 19 000 SEK, roughly 2 550 dollars, monthly.

Is that before or after taxes?  At anyrate, I think that the median in the US is about $28,000 or so.  But that isn't really much to live on.  Also, that is a terribly scewed number, because people in urban, sub-urban, rural and ulra-rural areas in this country have different standards of living and thus different income levels and needs.  The city person tends to have a larger income.  I would say that in most rural areas, if you wanted to make a good living for yourself, your spouse and three children, then you would probably need about $40,000 per year.  Living in the suburbs, it is about $60,000-$70,000 per year.  This is before taxes of course.

After, I think. Otherwise it wouldn't be survivable, would it? Considering that the tax level is 50% I mean.

[Beet]

Well then we get into morality. Now how do we define morality? Natural law... do animals have abortions? No. do the major religions believe in abortion? No. I mean, I can say that morally speaking an infant isn't a human being. Does that mean anything?

Well it does if you can prove it. This entire debate is in morality. We're not debating facts, but what policies are right or wrong.

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So, a plant has personal features too. No two plants are exactly alike. Obviously personal physical features does not equal human life.
 

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When the heart, liver, and kidneys fail, doctors try to do a transplant. When the mind fails, nobody tries to do a transplant. Why, because unless the mind can return at a later time, the person is considered dead. Even if the parts of the brain that are entirely separate from the mind remain, transplanting the parts of Sally's brain that encompass her mind into Bill's cranium (if such a thing could ever be done) is not going to save Bill. Sally has just switched bodies.

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Huh? If the mind is a defining part of humanity, then it is whether it exists or not. If it is not a defining part, then it isn't whether it exists or not. Definitions of concepts don't change with circumstances.

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Well I don't know if you can have brainwaves and still not have a mind in any sense whatsoever. After all brainwaves are so closely interconnected with consciousness. Types of brain waves alpha, beta, theta, and delta, differ only in their number of frequencies. Although in the delta state there appears to be no consciousness or mind, the phenomena is still the same nature as the higher level waves. But, if you are right, then as I said, I don't see the moral value of a human body alone.

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You can feel aversion without reasoning.

[CTguy]

The south inherently benefits from our tax system.  Since the north is more costly to live in, people are paid more and therefore taxed more...  when that money is sent to Washington it is not redistributed accordingly.  

People below the poverty line in the south earn the same as people below the poverty line in the north even though the cost of living is far cheaper in the south.  A meager salary that would be considered poor in the northeast would be fine in the South yet these people are entitled to welfare.  And who loses out?  Me.  

I'm sorry but these people don't even want to get an education.  I resent the fact that my tax dollars go to pay their way when all they can do with their school systems is try and get creationism taught in schools in Georgia and Alabama.  Then they wonder why jobs are outsourcing from those states and high skilled jobs don't come in.

I would like to see a regional tax system put into place.  Whereby everyone pays for some national things like national defense.  But by and large everything else goes into a regional pool.  So my tax money doesn't go towards funding schools in Georgia or welfare systems in South Carolina.  It goes against the principles of federalism that I am funding these types of christian-zealous school systems with my tax dollars.

[12th Doctor]

The south inherently benefits from our tax system.  Since the north is more costly to live in, people are paid more and therefore taxed more...  when that money is sent to Washington it is not redistributed accordingly.  

People below the poverty line in the south earn the same as people below the poverty line in the north even though the cost of living is far cheaper in the south.  A meager salary that would be considered poor in the northeast would be fine in the South yet these people are entitled to welfare.  And who loses out?  Me.  

I'm sorry but these people don't even want to get an education.  I resent the fact that my tax dollars go to pay their way when all they can do with their school systems is try and get creationism taught in schools in Georgia and Alabama.  Then they wonder why jobs are outsourcing from those states and high skilled jobs don't come in.

I would like to see a regional tax system put into place.  Whereby everyone pays for some national things like national defense.  But by and large everything else goes into a regional pool.  So my tax money doesn't go towards funding schools in Georgia or welfare systems in South Carolina.  It goes against the principles of federalism that I am funding these types of christian-zealous school systems with my tax dollars.

Your whole premise is total off.  While it remains true that it is more expensive to live in the the north (for the most part) it is also true that the median income in the south is only half that of the north (for the most part).

[Vincent]

Hello,
I followed this thread carefully a couple months ago but didnt really catch on when it became active again, so im sorry if im repeating any idea already stated here but i feel the urge to weigh in with my input here.                    

- I feel that until proven otherwise it should be assumed that abortion takes a human life, thus I can not justify having an abortion in almost all circumstances.

However I have a bit of a dilema caused by the fact that I am not sure that abortion kills.

To start with if abortion is murder it must be treated as such, abortion doctors must be charged with first degree murder, you cant have a seperate charge for abortion.
(i am pointing this out because the penalty for performing partial birth abortion in the recent ban was 2 years in prision. If a person really thinks its murder, how can they justify only 2 years.)

To convict someone of any other crime, there needs to be proof beyond a reasonible doubt that they commited the crime. Since I can not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that abortion is murder, I cant convict anyone of murder for performing one.

[Brambila]

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How can you prove morality? If you can't, then must we automatically assume that morality is relative? Of course not.

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Yes! A plant has personal features... but does it have human dna? No. It has plant DNA. That's what make it human. The personal features simply makes it a person. Each plant is a plant being, or person. Each human is a human being, or person.

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You have just mimicked what I said. Yes! I understand that the mind is a very important part in determining life. However, since the fetus hasn't developed a mind yet, we look at all the other determining factors- the fact that it has it's own uniqe DNA (except with identical twins and cloning), it's own future, it's own conception, et cetera. Picture the fetus not as a brain dead being, but as a being recovering from a coma.

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As I made clear, the mind is a defining part of humanity, not the defining part of humanity. If the mind were a defining part of humanity, then people in comas would not be human. Since this is obviously not the case, there are obviously exceptions. You can't say that a person in a coma is an exception but an unborn child isn't... come on. The fetus has other defining parts of humanity other than the mind, especially at the early stage where the mind is not yet developed.

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Oh that's not true. The mind, once again, is perception, will, reasoning, et cetera. But there are people at stages (such as people in comas) where the brainwaves are working, but the mind isn't. What are the brianwaves doing? They're metabolising, pumping the heart, et cetera. Without brainwaves you wouldn't  be able to do that. That's obviously not a mind though. A mind is much more than that.

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Point?

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[??????????]

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Can you show me any documentation at all that "most" southerners dont want an education? Maybe "most" southerners feel that just because you go to a college you are not smarter then someone who didn't. Creationism should be taught alongside evolution and the students should be allowed to determine where they stand. Shoving either one side or the other down a students throat is unfair. And actually many jobs are flowing into the south. The souths is really starting to industrialize.

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I think a national sales tax would be better. Anything but the IRS which is on shaky constitutional ground to begin with.

[MarkDel]

The south inherently benefits from our tax system.  Since the north is more costly to live in, people are paid more and therefore taxed more...  when that money is sent to Washington it is not redistributed accordingly.  

People below the poverty line in the south earn the same as people below the poverty line in the north even though the cost of living is far cheaper in the south.  A meager salary that would be considered poor in the northeast would be fine in the South yet these people are entitled to welfare.  And who loses out?  Me.  

I'm sorry but these people don't even want to get an education.  I resent the fact that my tax dollars go to pay their way when all they can do with their school systems is try and get creationism taught in schools in Georgia and Alabama.  Then they wonder why jobs are outsourcing from those states and high skilled jobs don't come in.

I would like to see a regional tax system put into place.  Whereby everyone pays for some national things like national defense.  But by and large everything else goes into a regional pool.  So my tax money doesn't go towards funding schools in Georgia or welfare systems in South Carolina.  It goes against the principles of federalism that I am funding these types of christian-zealous school systems with my tax dollars.

Your whole premise is total off.  While it remains true that it is more expensive to live in the the north (for the most part) it is also true that the median income in the south is only half that of the north (for the most part).

Supersoulty,

How dare you cite an actual fact to disprove CTguy's "brilliant" theory about Southerners "draining" the Federal Tax system because they're all a bunch of poorly educated, inbreds, who sit around on their ass all day and collect welfare. What an elitist pr*ck this CTguy is...

[??????????]

Amen brother!

[12th Doctor]

The south inherently benefits from our tax system.  Since the north is more costly to live in, people are paid more and therefore taxed more...  when that money is sent to Washington it is not redistributed accordingly.  

People below the poverty line in the south earn the same as people below the poverty line in the north even though the cost of living is far cheaper in the south.  A meager salary that would be considered poor in the northeast would be fine in the South yet these people are entitled to welfare.  And who loses out?  Me.  

I'm sorry but these people don't even want to get an education.  I resent the fact that my tax dollars go to pay their way when all they can do with their school systems is try and get creationism taught in schools in Georgia and Alabama.  Then they wonder why jobs are outsourcing from those states and high skilled jobs don't come in.

I would like to see a regional tax system put into place.  Whereby everyone pays for some national things like national defense.  But by and large everything else goes into a regional pool.  So my tax money doesn't go towards funding schools in Georgia or welfare systems in South Carolina.  It goes against the principles of federalism that I am funding these types of christian-zealous school systems with my tax dollars.

Your whole premise is total off.  While it remains true that it is more expensive to live in the the north (for the most part) it is also true that the median income in the south is only half that of the north (for the most part).

Supersoulty,

How dare you cite an actual fact to disprove CTguy's "brilliant" theory about Southerners "draining" the Federal Tax system because they're all a bunch of poorly educated, inbreds, who sit around on their ass all day and collect welfare. What an elitist pr*ck this CTguy is...

Thanks, my thoughts exactly.  I'm just dying to see how he respondes.