Abortion

[Beet]

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The blueprints for the mind are there, it simply hasn't grown. There isn't a period where the mind suddenly is created. THe mind is always growing, and if there is any period where the mind has reached "full growth" potential, it is far after birth. Sure, the zygote doesn't have a mind, but it is growing one, it has the blue prints.

If you have a function and at point x, f(x) is FALSE and at some later point y, f(y) is TRUE, then at some point between x and y, the function's value changed from FALSE to TRUE. Similarly, if the mind is not present at the moment of conception and at the moment immediately following conception, and it is present at the moment of birth and at the moment immediately following birth, it's a logical tautological that there is a point where the mind is created. Of course, there is no period where the mind suddenly pops into existence as mature... thats obviously not what we're talking about. Take an adult mind and shrink it to a child's mind... it is still a mind which we value the same way. Shrink that to a baby's mind. Same thing. How far can we shrink the dimensions of its mind and still have it exist? In other words, what is a mind's fundamental character that distinguishes it from the rest of the body? It seems to be in its having sustenained (or ability to sustain, I havent made up my mind which) of either physical or emotional feeling, with the potential to continue to sustain that feeling. As mentioned, when a mind goes into a permanent coma... no longer able to sustain such feelings, hospitals often pull the plug.

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At some point a fetus is capable of having a mind, but this point is crossed at some point during the pregnancy. It is not present at conception.

[Brambila]

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Why are you bringing Intermediate Algebra into this? Just say what you need to say...

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That's incorrect. Once again, there is no period when the mind suddenly appears- this is a neurological fact. The mind is never fully grown, it's always growing. Sure, the fetus doesn't have a mind, but that's only because it doesn't need it yet. It will need it later on.  

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Firstly, there is no such thing as a perminent coma. Secondly, if there was, the fetus wouldn't be in that case. The fetus is in a period where the mind is growing, and it will have a mind eventually. But that isn't the only defining part of life. Personhood is the defining part of life, and the fetus is it's own person- it grows in a distinct way, has a distinct presence, (usually) a distinct DNA, and is distinct from the mother's body. The fetus is it's own human being. Simply because it doesn't know it's going to die or can't feel it's pain in early fetal stages doesn't strip it from humanity. It's still a human being and should be protected by law. It has it's own future. It's not sperm or egg; it's its own, unique, being.

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Just like it is not present during a coma. So kill all people in comas.  

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Besides the fact that you situation is not only extremely hypothetical but nonexistent, let's go with it. If that was the case, abortion would be fine for several reasons. A) it threatens the life of the mother. B) there is certainty that the fetus will not live. C) The fetus doesn't have a brain, so it would be dead anyway. Actually, it would never even make it past four weeks into fetal stages.

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If your situation were reality, abortion would be fine at that stage. Further, abortion after the fetus was born would be fine. But the person would be dead far before being at a later term. It would be dead at 4 weeks into its fetal stage. This may come as a shock to you... but people cannot live on their own without a brain! You are officially dead if you have no brianwaves!

The problem with partial-birth abortion is that the fetus feels the same pain that an infant feels. It feels the same pain that you and I feel. It is fully aware.Imagine being stabbed in the back of the head with a knife- not fun. Partial-Birth abortion is an absolutely savage procedure.

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So what? It's long and painful for parents to kill their teenage daughters... does that make it right? Of course not.

I've got a solution to this difficult decision- how about no decision at all? Arn't I smart or what?

[migrendel]

I would suggest you read up on anencephaly and hydrocephalus, two obstetric conditions in which a fetus is conceived without a full brain, is born alive, and they are both dangerous to maternal health.

In addition, it is rather hasty of you to describe dilation and extraction as barbaric. What is barbaric, under most modern ethical standards, is to force women to bear unwanted children under the most unsafe of conditions.

I also could not help to note that you oppose abortion because you feel that a fetus can feel pain. A fetus cannot feel pain until it develops a cerebral cortex. Would you support abortion rights prior to that point?

P.S. The correct locution isn't aren't I, it is am I not.

[Beet]

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1. Do you have a mind?

2. Did you have a mind before conception?

Looks like we're back to intermediate algebra. If you agree with statement 1, but disagree with statement 2, then it logically follows that at some point (or period) between the present and the moment before you were concieved, the status of reality changed from "you have a mind" to "you don't have a mind". If the status never changed, then you have no mind. Period.

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Permanent coma: "This means you would be permanently unconscious. Permanent coma is usually caused by decreased blood flow to the brain; for example, from the heart stopping. You would be unable to eat or drink and would need a feeding tube for nourishment. You would not have bowel or bladder control. You would need to be in bed, and you would never regain consciousness. You could live at home with someone caring for you all day and night; otherwise you would probably need to be cared for in a chronic care hospital."

-University of Toronto Joint Centre for Bioethics

http://www.utoronto.ca/jcb/_lwdisclaimer/jcbchap3.htm#Permanent%20Coma

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If you say it "will have a mind eventually," that means it has no mind presently. The mind only exists in potential. So if Jim and Sally are about to have sex, they will concieve eventually and their child will have a mind eventually. But if Sally's father comes home and breaks up their little soiree, the entire process is aborted; the potential is ended. Since that doesn't make Sally's father a killer, it follows that potential alone means nothing here.

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The fetus is physically separate from the mother, yes, and it has a distinct DNA, and is a living organism. But before some stage, it has no mind. In this sense it is exactly the same as people in permanent comas, with the sole exception in its potential to have a mind. But as we already saw, potential does not equal existence. For substantive purposes then, a fetus at this stage is the same as a person in a permanent coma.

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That's true, but the fact that its mind has never come into existence does mean that it is not yet human. In the sense that a human has both a mind and body. A mind goes beyond mere knowing or feeling pain-- its the entire mental aspect of human existence. Without which aspect there would be no human when you are thinking in terms of moral philosophy. Permanent coma is the only parallel hypothetic situation here.

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In case of a permanent coma, it is the choice of a person's legal guardian of closest relative whether or not to pull the plug.

[Brambila]

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With anecephaly and hydrocephalus the child has a portion of the brain. You said without a brain:

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You need a brain for your body to work. They can't work on their own for very long.

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So why don't we kill their children after they are born, when they are infants? We're not forcing women to do anything. If they make the mistake to try to kill their child, they'll pay for the consequences.

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I don't solely oppose abortion because the fetus after about 3-4 months can feel pain. Abortion is the killing of an innocent human being. It's not the fetus' fault he or she was born, it's the mother and father's fault usually. Ergo, I would not support abortion in any cases, except when the mother's life is threatened, and only up till the fetus can feel pain.

[zachman]

I don't think an unborn baby has any rights, and is under the complete control of the mother. I think a doctor can make a safety decision that the mother must follow, as in the case in Utah.

[Brambila]

I don't think an unborn baby has any rights, and is under the complete control of the mother. I think a doctor can make a safety decision that the mother must follow, as in the case in Utah.

Mande?

[FLGOP]

It surprises me how those that consider themselves pro-choice believe that there is only a choice after sexual intercourse.  There is always the choice of having sex in the first place.  Afterwards, there is the choice of which contraceptive to use, such as condoms, spermicidal jelly, diaphragms, timing, etc.  There is always the knowledge that having sex without protection may lead to pregnancy.  There is also the knowledge that intercourse may lead to an STD.  There are pressures to have people use protection.  Never focusing on personal responsibility does lead to the decay of society.

[zachman]

I don't trust many people, and thats how I form too many of my viewpoints.

[nclib]

I don't think an unborn baby has any rights, and is under the complete control of the mother. I think a doctor can make a safety decision that the mother must follow, as in the case in Utah.

The case in Utah disturbs me because it could set a precedent for abortion rights as well as the rights of the mentally ill. A friend of mine e-mailed me the article and I can post it here if anyone is interested.

[ElCidGOP]

I see issues as either right or wrong, no gray area.  I really don't understand how anyone can think that abortion should be legal.  Since I can remember I have always felt that way.  My wife gave birth to our first child (a son) on March 4, 2004.  This has only reinforced my belief that abortion is an abomination and is a great evil.  I could never and will never vote for any candidate that is pro-abortion.  

[ElCidGOP]

This talk of this disease and that disease obscures the fact that the VAST majority of abortions in this country are performed for the convinience of the mother/father.  A story of mine:  Just after the 2000 elections, I was sitting in a brewery in Portland, Oregon.  I struck up a conversation with a pretty woman of about 25 to 30.  She was a professional, good looking, white woman.  Of course, given the times and the fact that I am an outspoken and blatant conservative, we began to discuss the Bush v. Gore debacle.  She was a Gore voter.  Then, the conversation turned to the issues and eventually to abortion.  She tells me that she is personally offended by my views on abortion because she had one when she was in college.  I was offended cause she had an abortion.   Though the conversation soon ended,  she did tell me that she became pregnant and was in the middle of her college career and that she had big plans for the future.  She says that her plan would be ended if she had to give birth to a child.  I couldn't believe my ears.  Nine months.  She came from an upper middle class family.  She could have given birth to the baby, put the baby up for adoption and there would have been a line around the corner of people ready and willing to adopt that baby and love that baby till the end of time.  What a tragedy!  I couldn't help but get the feeling that her decision will haunt her for the rest of her life.  Nine months of sacrifice on her part could have brought a new life into the world, instead, it was ended.  Plenty of blame to go around for this.  Her parents (where are the values that would prevent a horrendous decision like that), the father (where is he, the scoundrel), society (abortion is legal).  

History will judge us harshly for our position on abortion.

I would suggest you read up on anencephaly and hydrocephalus, two obstetric conditions in which a fetus is conceived without a full brain, is born alive, and they are both dangerous to maternal health.

In addition, it is rather hasty of you to describe dilation and extraction as barbaric. What is barbaric, under most modern ethical standards, is to force women to bear unwanted children under the most unsafe of conditions.

I also could not help to note that you oppose abortion because you feel that a fetus can feel pain. A fetus cannot feel pain until it develops a cerebral cortex. Would you support abortion rights prior to that point?

P.S. The correct locution isn't aren't I, it is am I not.

[Brambila]

Congradulations! What did you name him? How much did he weigh?

[ElCidGOP]

Jack and he weighed 7 lbs, 6 oz, 20 inches long.  Mom and Jack are doing fine.  Thanks for asking.

Congradulations! What did you name him? How much did he weigh?

[migrendel]

The fact that she was able to make that choice without people such as yourself preventing her from doing so shows that liberty is alive and well in this country. History has always been on the side of liberty, from winning independence to freeing the slaves and ever onward. We have granted women the preliminaries of freedom by giving them a vote, let us confirm our determination by allowing freedom and not biology to be the ultimate law of this nation.

If a majority of women choose abortion for personal reasons, what is the shame? Would you prefer those children to go into miserable homes? Would you prefer women to suffer under a cloud of misery until the end of their days? I am aware that people like you invoke the argument that people shouldn't have sex, but it happens. We must not make non sequitur decisions because of a flawed concept of reality exulting the tenability of abstinence. I am happy to hear that you have a new baby that is loved. But should your wife have decided otherwise, and none of us, I think, can understand the depths of desperation women sometimes face, it is not for you, or me, or the federal government to say differently. When our progeny are loved, wanted, and provided for, that is when we have a humane society.

[Nation]

The fact that she was able to make that choice without people such as yourself preventing her from doing so shows that liberty is alive and well in this country. History has always been on the side of liberty, from winning independence to freeing the slaves and ever onward. We have granted women the preliminaries of freedom by giving them a vote, let us confirm our determination by allowing freedom and not biology to be the ultimate law of this nation.

If a majority of women choose abortion for personal reasons, what is the shame? Would you prefer those children to go into miserable homes? Would you prefer women to suffer under a cloud of misery until the end of their days? I am aware that people like you invoke the argument that people shouldn't have sex, but it happens. We must not make non sequitur decisions because of a flawed concept of reality exulting the tenability of abstinence. I am happy to hear that you have a new baby that is loved. But should your wife have decided otherwise, and none of us, I think, can understand the depths of desperation women sometimes face, it is not for you, or me, or the federal government to say differently. When our progeny are loved, wanted, and provided for, that is when we have a humane society.

Amen!

[Brambila]

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What is liberty? I mean, everyone has choices... but are there not limits to choices? We can't steal. I can't rape. I can't murder my child. Abortion is the murder of an innocent human being.

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Once again, everyone has limits to choices. You're not winning any argument by saying I'm restricting a woman's choice. I am. I don't doubt that. Her choice is to kill her child. There's no way that's going to be legal.

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Do you have any evidence that children put up for adoption would go to miserable homes or that women suffer from giving birth? Either way, it's irrelivent. That doesn't justify murder. Do you think it's just for abortion to go as far as murdering newborns?

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You can't justify murder by "it happens". Murder happens too. That doesn't mean it's justified.

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You have no idea how angry somebody is, and the emotions people go through when they murder somebody. How dare you judge them and tell them what they're doing is wrong? It's their choice! They thought it was right, so that makes it right!

[FLGOP]

Again, what about personal responsibility?  People have sex, granted; many people have sex wearing some form of protection that prevents the spread of STD and prevents pregnancy.  By saying that it is okay to have sex without the use of protection, because you can then go get an abortion, just clears the way for more unprotected sex.  Then we'll start wondering why there's a new epidemic related to sexually transmitted diseases.

[FLGOP]

All this talk about choice makes me wonder why all those supporting choice are so opposed to my choice to own a gun...

[CTguy]

I am not opposed to your choice to own a gun as long as you aren't wreckless with it.  But I think people like you should respect other peoples choices...  such as the choice to have an abortion.  If you think it is so bad then dont you have one, but don't force everyone else to follow your religious or moral beliefs.

If you won't vote for a candidate who is pro-choice, how can you vote for Bush considering he has been in office for 3 years now with the Republicans in complete control of congress and has done nothing to outlaw abortion, just a few restrictive measures here and there.

[Nation]

It really doesn't matter if you feel it should be illegal or not, because the courts will rule in favor of it every time. The 4th Amendment is what will allow abortions to continue, and the fact that we don't begin counting life UNTIL THE DAY SOMEONE IS BORN (birth certificate, 18/21 laws) means that, in the eyes of the law, that's when life begins.

You can continue with your emotional arguments all you'd like, but they won't hold up in court.

[CTguy]

You know, I do respect people who think that abortion is murder.  I don't agree with them but I respect their right to hold their opinion.  Just as long as it's not based solely on the bible and any dogmatic religious views.  

We have a separation of Church and State.  I also don't really sympathize with Christians who say "Thou Shalt not Kill" and then are the first to bang the drum to go to war or to execute someone.

This isn't to say that everyone who is against abortion is a religious fanatic.  I do know some people who are against abortion and the death penalty because they are bleeding hearts and feel terrible about the idea of killing babies.  Again, I totally disagree with them, but I empathize with them.  

With that said, if these people really think abortion is murder, why have they, through the years been so focused on stopping interracial marriage, gay marriage, civil rights, integration, immigration, the separation of church and state...  I mean you'd think this issue would take precedence if they believed abortion was murder...  I mean what bigger issue could you have than mass murders...  thousands a weeks...?

I just watched a program on A&E dealing with the civil rights movement...  One of the religious principles the KKK used against integration was that the bible teaches us that different races should remain separate... as one Klan leader put it "You don't see different fish in the sea swimming in the same schools."  It's just amazing that religious people take up wedge issues like that rather than focusing on the real problems in society like the huge poor population in this country (who tend to be the most religious of any group)...  what about helping their fellow christian man rather than creating these wedge issues that divide the country and solve nothing!

[ElCidGOP]

President Bush can't do anything about abortion.  He can restrict certain funds from being used in certain ways and other modest measures, but he can nominate good, conservative judges to the courts.  Of course, this is virtually impossible with the likes of Patrick Leahy, Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton.  The Roe v. Wade decision was the worst judicial decision in the history of the United States.  

There are THREE MILLION abortions a year in the United States.  Once again, THAT'S THREE MILLION!  Not four, or ten or even a thousand.  It is not rare, it is RAMPANT.  The majority of these abortions occur for the convenience of the party's involved.  Abortions are an industry in this country.  Planned Parenthood is a corporation, making millions of dollars a year.  I don't see how the belief that abortion ends a life is a religious or moral belief.  I don't care if you worship the kitchen sink or have no belief whatsoever in any god anywhere, basic human decency should provide for the protection of innocent unborn human life.  Take a look at an ultrasound, listen to a unborn child's beating heart.  Do you know that unborn children get the hiccups in the womb?  They reflexively move away from light, which they perceive as a threat.  

Like I said, it can be spun this way and that, but abortion still ends a human life.  It is disgusting.

I am not opposed to your choice to own a gun as long as you aren't wreckless with it.  But I think people like you should respect other peoples choices...  such as the choice to have an abortion.  If you think it is so bad then dont you have one, but don't force everyone else to follow your religious or moral beliefs.

If you won't vote for a candidate who is pro-choice, how can you vote for Bush considering he has been in office for 3 years now with the Republicans in complete control of congress and has done nothing to outlaw abortion, just a few restrictive measures here and there.

[CTguy]

You're right, he can't personally vote on it.  But you're kidding yourself if you think Bush or any politician really cares...  

He is outspoken in his belief that Congress should amend the constitution to outlaw gay marriages...  yet he doesn't call for similar action on abortion... which he and you and many others think is MURDER???

I don't get the logic in that!!  Murder seems like a much bigger issue...

Oh wait I do get the logic... he follows polls that say that well over 60% of the public wants to keep abortion legal...  whereas only 35% support gay marriage...  In other words he wants to pick a winning issue rather than one he really cares about.

I do think you probably care deeply about the issue...  I disagree with you but I don't think for one minute that Bush cares or is even bothered for a second that there are 3 million abortions a year.  He just cares how many millions of votes he can get by pandering to some religious lobby while not offending the public at large.

[Nation]

There are THREE MILLION abortions a year in the United States.  Once again, THAT'S THREE MILLION!  Not four, or ten or even a thousand.  It is not rare, it is RAMPANT.

Get your head out of your ass and get the facts straight:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/releases/03facts/pregbirths.htm



Even a bigger decline going into 2000...

I don't care what your position is, but don't !@#$ with the facts to increase the emotion to your argument. 857,457 looks a lot different than 3 million to me.

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/surv_abort00.htm