If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

[Greatest I am]

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus died, does that make Jesus a sinner?

To sin is to do something immoral and thus create a victim to that sin. I cannot see all sins as something that would condemn us to eternal suffering and death in hell or the lake of fire as that goes against the biblical notion of justice being an eye for an eye or that the penalty should fit the crime/sin.

What sin did Jesus do to earn his death?

I see Jesus’ death as more of suicide than sacrifice as he initiated his own suicide by getting Judas to betray him.

Could Jesus’ sin have been suicide?

If not, what do you think his sin was?

Regards
DL

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

No because death came to be as a result of sin, and Jesus had to die eventually since he was a human living in a world populated by sin.

Whether or not Jesus had a sinful nature like all other humans is up for debate, but I guess from a certain point of view, His crucifixion could be considered suicide from a certain point of view as he set himself up for it.

In case you forgot, after the forbidden fruit was eaten, God killed a lamb in place of Adam and Eve. Did the lamb sin? No. Jesus is supposed to be similar to that lamb, but to represent all of humanity rather than just the first two.

But why am I bothering talking to someone like you?

[Mr. Reactionary]

Just because A results in B, that does not mean you can only get B through A.

[Greatest I am]

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Without death, nothing new would grow and the earth would have been overcrowded millions of years ago without death. Yuk. You and I would have never had the room to live.

I agree that yours is the dogma.

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Being around sin is what Jesus said he liked, a doctor goes to the sick type of thing, and your dogma says that Jesus is God and God cannot die.
, so to say he had to die when he could not really die is not correct. It could be said that he shed an outer layer that was flesh but that is not his consciousness dying. Right?

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Jesus is said to have a human half and does not say that there are any exceptions to Original Sin.

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Yes. I think that is clear.

Is suicide a sin?

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Only Christians who buy into the apostles creed as far as I know. Non-Christians end in hell with the vast majority of Christians according to the dogma.

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I don't know. I thought topics were more important than who put them.

That is why I keep this quote handy.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

I thank you for the interest in the topic.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

Just because A results in B, that does not mean you can only get B through A.

It does in any equation I have seen.

Perhaps you could show how you would solve an equation to prove your statement?

I know equations from my technical sales days and will understand it no problem.

Do you think his death a suicide or a sacrifice?

Regards
DL

[Mr. Reactionary]

Sacrifice of an unblemished lamb.

I dont believe in original sin, so I dont see a baby dying as being the wages of the baby's sins.

[Greatest I am]

Sacrifice of an unblemished lamb.

I dont believe in original sin, so I dont see a baby dying as being the wages of the baby's sins.

I did not discuss animals. I spoke of the death of a man.

I too do not see Eden and what went on there as a sin.

Like the Jews who wrote the myth, I see it as where man wall elevated and not where he fell.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

Is that how you see it?

Regards
DL

[Wells]

If everyone who reads a Greatest I Am post rolls their eyes, and I just rolled my eyes, does that mean I just read a Greatest I Am post?

[Greatest I am]

If everyone who reads a Greatest I Am post rolls their eyes, and I just rolled my eyes, does that mean I just read a Greatest I Am post?

It means that you are not bright enough to understand what is written.

That or you cannot dither out an answer and decided to show the hate in your heart with insult instead of correction or argument. No wonder Christianity is shrinking so fast in the West.

Keep up the good work for my side.

Regards
DL

[Kingpoleon]

If the wages of working as a teacher is ten thousand dollars, and John has ten thousand dollars, does that make John a teacher?

[Greatest I am]

If the wages of working as a teacher is ten thousand dollars, and John has ten thousand dollars, does that make John a teacher?

So that is how you justify thinking a God can die.

Interesting.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I am]

If the wages of working as a teacher is ten thousand dollars, and John has ten thousand dollars, does that make John a teacher?

So that is how you justify thinking a God can die.

Interesting.

Regards
DL

Jesus had two natures:  he had both a human nature and a divine nature as he walked upon the Earth - he was both fully God and fully man.  This is called the hypostatic union.  Even though the human portion of Jesus died upon crucifixion, Jesus still remained God .  The Bible says that all things are held together through the power of Christ (Colossians 1:17) - this divine nature of Christ remained the same, but the human nature of Christ did die on the cross, before rising again in 3 days.   

I have heard all the gibberish that Christians use to try to justify the Trinity concept that Constantine forced down his churches throat 340 years after Jesus died.

Do you really see Jesus as being a part of the genocidal baby torturing Yahweh?

God I hope not as Jesus was invented as an archetypal good man. To say he is the same or part of that Yahweh prick is to insult all moral men who follow Jesus and Jesus himself. Not that there was ever a real Jesus like the miracle worker Christianity invented.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

 

[RFayette]

If the wages of working as a teacher is ten thousand dollars, and John has ten thousand dollars, does that make John a teacher?

So that is how you justify thinking a God can die.

Interesting.

Regards
DL

Jesus had two natures:  he had both a human nature and a divine nature as he walked upon the Earth - he was both fully God and fully man.  This is called the hypostatic union.  Even though the human portion of Jesus died upon crucifixion, Jesus still remained God .  The Bible says that all things are held together through the power of Christ (Colossians 1:17) - this divine nature of Christ remained the same, but the human nature of Christ did die on the cross, before rising again in 3 days.   

I have heard all the gibberish that Christians use to try to justify the Trinity concept that Constantine forced down his churches throat 340 years after Jesus died.

Do you really see Jesus as being a part of the genocidal baby torturing Yahweh?

God I hope not as Jesus was invented as an archetypal good man. To say he is the same or part of that Yahweh prick is to insult all moral men who follow Jesus and Jesus himself. Not that there was ever a real Jesus like the miracle worker Christianity invented.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

 

1. The trinity can be deduced from the New Testament - especially passages like John 1, and was written about by church fathers like Theophilus and Tertullian in the 2nd century (and early 3rd), well before Constantine.

2. If you think the God of the Old Testament is harsh, have you read Matthew 7, Matthew 18, John 15, and the book of Revelation?  Jesus is both merciful and talks of judgment, the same as we see in the Old Testament.  Revelation 19 says Jesus will return on a white horse and slay his enemies:  sounds a lot like the "OT wrathful God" to me. 

[Greatest I am]

Well, if you wish to believe that Jesus would kill instead of cure like Yahweh is always shown to do, go ahead.

Most, not even the Christians that I have many disagreements with, think that Jesus is anything like the prick that Yahweh is portrayed as being in the scriptures.

I do not like some of the moral positions the scribes put Jesus in but he is definitely a cut above Yahweh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7WFVP1FI

Regards
DL

[Alabama_Indy10]

Well, if you wish to believe that Jesus would kill instead of cure like Yahweh is always shown to do, go ahead.

Most, not even the Christians that I have many disagreements with, think that Jesus is anything like the prick that Yahweh is portrayed as being in the scriptures.

I do not like some of the moral positions the scribes put Jesus in but he is definitely a cut above Yahweh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7WFVP1FI

Regards
DL

Why do you do this? You're not writing a letter

[Greatest I am]

Well, if you wish to believe that Jesus would kill instead of cure like Yahweh is always shown to do, go ahead.

Most, not even the Christians that I have many disagreements with, think that Jesus is anything like the prick that Yahweh is portrayed as being in the scriptures.

I do not like some of the moral positions the scribes put Jesus in but he is definitely a cut above Yahweh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7WFVP1FI

Regards
DL

Why do you do this? You're not writing a letter

Force of habit from memo writing in my working days.

Regard
DL

[RFayette]

Well, if you wish to believe that Jesus would kill instead of cure like Yahweh is always shown to do, go ahead.

Most, not even the Christians that I have many disagreements with, think that Jesus is anything like the prick that Yahweh is portrayed as being in the scriptures.

I do not like some of the moral positions the scribes put Jesus in but he is definitely a cut above Yahweh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7WFVP1FI

Regards
DL

Regardless of what other Christians may say, Jesus clearly drives his authority from the God of the Hebrew Bible.  Jesus said in John 5:46 that if you believed Moses, you would believe me.  So it's clear that Jesus considered the Old Testament to be the word of God; therefore, as he is depicted as God in the New Testament, if Christianity is true, then Jesus and Yahweh of the Old Testament must be part of the same godhead. 

[Greatest I am]

Well, if you wish to believe that Jesus would kill instead of cure like Yahweh is always shown to do, go ahead.

Most, not even the Christians that I have many disagreements with, think that Jesus is anything like the prick that Yahweh is portrayed as being in the scriptures.

I do not like some of the moral positions the scribes put Jesus in but he is definitely a cut above Yahweh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7WFVP1FI

Regards
DL

Regardless of what other Christians may say, Jesus clearly drives his authority from the God of the Hebrew Bible.  Jesus said in John 5:46 that if you believed Moses, you would believe me.  So it's clear that Jesus considered the Old Testament to be the word of God; therefore, as he is depicted as God in the New Testament, if Christianity is true, then Jesus and Yahweh of the Old Testament must be part of the same godhead. 

Jesus, like any good Gnostic Christian, shows both respect and disrespect for various parts of the belief system around him.

Take when Jews were going to stone a man for picking up firewood. Jesus jumps in and says that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. I extrapolate from that that Jesus would also say that religions and Gods are also created for man and not man for them.

That goes with him saying he came to serve and not be served. Meanwhile Christians are all about serving God, who being Omni everything surly has no use for servants.

Regards
DL

[RFayette]

Well, if you wish to believe that Jesus would kill instead of cure like Yahweh is always shown to do, go ahead.

Most, not even the Christians that I have many disagreements with, think that Jesus is anything like the prick that Yahweh is portrayed as being in the scriptures.

I do not like some of the moral positions the scribes put Jesus in but he is definitely a cut above Yahweh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7WFVP1FI

Regards
DL

Regardless of what other Christians may say, Jesus clearly drives his authority from the God of the Hebrew Bible.  Jesus said in John 5:46 that if you believed Moses, you would believe me.  So it's clear that Jesus considered the Old Testament to be the word of God; therefore, as he is depicted as God in the New Testament, if Christianity is true, then Jesus and Yahweh of the Old Testament must be part of the same godhead. 

Jesus, like any good Gnostic Christian, shows both respect and disrespect for various parts of the belief system around him.

Take when Jews were going to stone a man for picking up firewood. Jesus jumps in and says that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. I extrapolate from that that Jesus would also say that religions and Gods are also created for man and not man for them.

That goes with him saying he came to serve and not be served. Meanwhile Christians are all about serving God, who being Omni everything surly has no use for servants.

Regards
DL

Jesus did not discard one sentence of the Hebrew Bible.  He said explicitly he came not to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17).  Jesus brokered a new covenant; it doesn't mean the Mosaic law was invalid, but rather that it was appointed for the fullness of God's revelation to us to come at the time (Colossians 2:9).  Jesus's rebukes against the teachers of the law were not for the law in the Torah itself, but rather the extrapolations that were added by religious teachers of the day (such as the forbidding of healing on the Sabbath). 

[TJ in Oregon]

No. Jesus accepted death in restitution for those who had sinned (all of us). He gave his life so that others might live. The question posed is a non-sequitur.

[Greatest I am]

Well, if you wish to believe that Jesus would kill instead of cure like Yahweh is always shown to do, go ahead.

Most, not even the Christians that I have many disagreements with, think that Jesus is anything like the prick that Yahweh is portrayed as being in the scriptures.

I do not like some of the moral positions the scribes put Jesus in but he is definitely a cut above Yahweh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFx7WFVP1FI

Regards
DL

Regardless of what other Christians may say, Jesus clearly drives his authority from the God of the Hebrew Bible.  Jesus said in John 5:46 that if you believed Moses, you would believe me.  So it's clear that Jesus considered the Old Testament to be the word of God; therefore, as he is depicted as God in the New Testament, if Christianity is true, then Jesus and Yahweh of the Old Testament must be part of the same godhead. 

Jesus, like any good Gnostic Christian, shows both respect and disrespect for various parts of the belief system around him.

Take when Jews were going to stone a man for picking up firewood. Jesus jumps in and says that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. I extrapolate from that that Jesus would also say that religions and Gods are also created for man and not man for them.

That goes with him saying he came to serve and not be served. Meanwhile Christians are all about serving God, who being Omni everything surly has no use for servants.

Regards
DL

Jesus did not discard one sentence of the Hebrew Bible.  He said explicitly he came not to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17).  Jesus brokered a new covenant; it doesn't mean the Mosaic law was invalid, but rather that it was appointed for the fullness of God's revelation to us to come at the time (Colossians 2:9).  Jesus's rebukes against the teachers of the law were not for the law in the Torah itself, but rather the extrapolations that were added by religious teachers of the day (such as the forbidding of healing on the Sabbath). 

All true in a way. But what is the law of the prophets to you if not just the Golden Rule?

And Jesus accomplishing or fulfilling that means what exactly?

You call it a new covenant yet reciprocity sayings appear in almost all religions and spiritual traditions. So big deal if Jesus preached that. So did Jewry.

Your new covenant was already firmly in place.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Regards
DL

[RFayette]

Jesus's covenant wasn't just about personal ethics, which was reflected by the Golden Rule.  It was about the way by which our sins can be forgiven.  In the Old Testament, God consistently showed how sacrifices were needed to atone for the sins of Israel.  So Jesus became the perfect spotless lamb so that we no longer need to perform these sacrifices, and that through faith in Christ alone we can attain salvation, a guarantee of eternal life. 

[Greatest I am]

Jesus's covenant wasn't just about personal ethics, which was reflected by the Golden Rule.  It was about the way by which our sins can be forgiven.  In the Old Testament, God consistently showed how sacrifices were needed to atone for the sins of Israel.  So Jesus became the perfect spotless lamb so that we no longer need to perform these sacrifices, and that through faith in Christ alone we can attain salvation, a guarantee of eternal life. 

Only fools believe that God would condemn us or see a God like Yahweh as anything but a prick.

You go ahead and let a prick judge you if you like, but you cannot refute that what you want to do is immoral.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

I agree with Bishop Spong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL



 

[Ban my account ffs!]

Jesus's covenant wasn't just about personal ethics, which was reflected by the Golden Rule.  It was about the way by which our sins can be forgiven.  In the Old Testament, God consistently showed how sacrifices were needed to atone for the sins of Israel.  So Jesus became the perfect spotless lamb so that we no longer need to perform these sacrifices, and that through faith in Christ alone we can attain salvation, a guarantee of eternal life. 

Only fools believe that God would condemn us or see a God like Yahweh as anything but a prick.

You go ahead and let a prick judge you if you like, but you cannot refute that what you want to do is immoral.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

I agree with Bishop Spong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL



 

I understand that you understand that the world is upside down and backwards... but that is no reason to talk out of your ass because it's where your mouth should be.

[Kingpoleon]

If the wages of working as a teacher is ten thousand dollars, and John has ten thousand dollars, does that make John a teacher?

So that is how you justify thinking a God can die.

Interesting.

Regards
DL

No... I was making fun of your idiotic question.