Why can't republicans acknowledge the fact that they've lost on abortion?

[RINO Tom]

Why won't they move past the issue? It won't win them any supporters.

We're talking about an issue where many of these pro-life peoples believe abortion to be murder of actual babies. That kind of issue is not something you just admit defeat on if you are sincere in your beliefs. That's why Republicans won't give it up, or rather, pro-life people won't keep pushing the party.

Not to mention that the country is about 50/50 on it, and there isn't some clear "shifting of the tide" like gay marriage ... it's absurd to frame abortion as this issue that old, White Republican men cling to but will die off once they do.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

This is one of the ominous consequences of describing your views as "progressive" - it means you sometimes actually forget to provide arguments because your opinions are going to become status quo and undisputed in the near future anyway.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Smug, overconfident pro-abortion folks who think that their definition of progress is certain to prevail in the future. SAD.

[dead0man]

This is one of the ominous consequences of describing your views as "progressive" - it means you sometimes actually forget to provide arguments because your opinions are going to become status quo and undisputed in the near future anyway.

to be fair, sometimes it's really hard to come up with a reason you feel a certain way about a certain issue when the only reason you feel that way is because all of your friends do.

[Coraxion]

Smug, overconfident pro-abortion folks who think that their definition of progress is certain to prevail in the future. SAD.

We aren't allowed to have political positions, because it's smug to think that our views are superiors to others'?

[The Free North]

This thread has zero substance to it. You seem to have created this solely to be provocative and gloat, falsely believing that your views have been triumphant due to the perceived intellectual and moral superiority of your liberal values in our modern culture.

God you are a bore.

[Deblano]

You realize that there's only a slight majority of people that are pro-choice?

http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/

pro-choice/pro-life views have been pretty neatly divided, dude. It's not like support for gay marriage or pot legalization.

The reason why abortion debate is so divided is because its about whether A LIFE (whether you call it a fetus or a human) should be allowed to be terminated in the womb. I'm pro-choice, and I think its a bit ignorant to say that people who are pro-life should shrug their arms and "admit they've lost". This isn't like debating on how low the corporate tax should be.

[Don Vito Corleone]

A) I wouldn't say they've lost on abortion, polling shows people are pretty evenly dived on this issue

B) A lot of Republicans view abortion as completely morally unjust, and in their mind (as well as almost anyone's mind) something that is morally unjust doesn't become OK just because it's popular. If a majority of people in the US thought we should repeal the Social Security amendments of 1965, I wouldn't suddenly be OK with it because I don't think we should ever take help away from people who need it.

[Bismarck]

How have they lost? Most Americans are in the middle (not supporting the GOP policy of no abortions ever or the dem policy of free abortions whenever) and I don't think the dial has shifted one way or the other for decades.

[RINO Tom]

Smug, overconfident pro-abortion folks who think that their definition of progress is certain to prevail in the future. SAD.

We aren't allowed to have political positions, because it's smug to think that our views are superiors to others'?

Read better.

[Confused Democrat]

This issue will never be resolved in the United States because, as Virginia previously stated, opponents to abortion rights literally believe that abortion is murder.

However, it dumbfounds me that many of the opponents to abortion rights are also opposed to increases in access to contraception and sex ed.

[Santander]

This issue will never be resolved in the United States because, as Virginia previously stated, opponents to abortion rights literally believe that abortion is murder.

Virginia said that many, not all, pro-life people believe abortion is murder. Many pro-life people (myself included) do not believe abortion and murder are the same thing. Abortion is the destruction of life, but not all destruction of life is murder.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Sadly they will within the next few decades.

They never will because probably 20% of the GOP vote is comprised of single-issue pro-life voters who wouldn't be willing to support a pro-choice GOP and would rather throw away their vote to some third party than feel like they are signing off on murder.

This country is rapidly becoming more secular.  And the Republican Party will begin to court nonreligious voters with the message of "look at these immigrants and their reactionary social views."  Just look at the right wing on YouTube.

[HisGrace]

Because then they wouldn't be able to get poor white people who would otherwise vote for Democrats to vote for them, or Evangelicals to vote for a thrice married casino magnate.

[Person Man]

This issue will never be resolved in the United States because, as Virginia previously stated, opponents to abortion rights literally believe that abortion is murder.

Virginia said that many, not all, pro-life people believe abortion is murder. Many pro-life people (myself included) do not believe abortion and murder are the same thing. Abortion is the destruction of life, but not all destruction of life is murder.

If it isn't murder, what is it?  Do you just want to put people in jail?

[Santander]

This issue will never be resolved in the United States because, as Virginia previously stated, opponents to abortion rights literally believe that abortion is murder.

Virginia said that many, not all, pro-life people believe abortion is murder. Many pro-life people (myself included) do not believe abortion and murder are the same thing. Abortion is the destruction of life, but not all destruction of life is murder.

If it isn't murder, what is it?  Do you just want to put people in jail?

There are many ways in which a human life can be destroyed by other human beings without it being murder, such as killing in self-defense, killing enemy soldiers in war, capital punishment, negligent manslaughter, etc.

The personhood of the unborn is not something which can be defined through science or legislative chambers, except perhaps viability outside of the womb. It is ultimately a matter of religious doctrine and individual morality. Most sects of Judaism certainly have different views on the status of the unborn than most sects of Christianity, and major religions have major disagreements among themselves, as well. It cannot be murder if the woman or the abortionist do not believe themselves to be killing a person.

[Person Man]

This issue will never be resolved in the United States because, as Virginia previously stated, opponents to abortion rights literally believe that abortion is murder.

Virginia said that many, not all, pro-life people believe abortion is murder. Many pro-life people (myself included) do not believe abortion and murder are the same thing. Abortion is the destruction of life, but not all destruction of life is murder.

If it isn't murder, what is it?  Do you just want to put people in jail?

There are many ways in which a human life can be destroyed by other human beings without it being murder, such as killing in self-defense, killing enemy soldiers in war, capital punishment, negligent manslaughter, etc.

The personhood of the unborn is not something which can be defined through science or legislative chambers, except perhaps viability outside of the womb. It is ultimately a matter of religious doctrine and individual morality. Most sects of Judaism certainly have different views on the status of the unborn than most sects of Christianity, and major religions have major disagreements among themselves, as well. It cannot be murder if the woman or the abortionist do not believe themselves to be killing a person.

What is it then?

[tallguy23]

The problem with those poll results are that they are often asked in a personal manner. The respondent is answering what their personal decision would be.

I'm sure the number of people who think women should have options (with regulations and time limits) would be much higher.

[President Johnson]

It was always hardly understandable as a foreigner why this topic is discussed so intensely in America. I haven't heard any politician from either relevant party in Germany talking about this issue at all. It is just a non-factor in every election.

[IceAgeComing]

The fundamental difference between the US and Europe on this is both that the predominantly evangelical Religious Right doesn't really exist in the same way in Europe than it does in America: and in most places a legislative compromise was put together and there's no public will to re-open the conversation (and generally the pro-choice side is louder; at least it seems that way from my perspective) whilst in America it was decided through the courts system and one side was entirely dissatisfied with the outcome, so its natural that they'll carry on fighting it.  In the countries that didn't do this (Ireland and Poland come to mind) abortion is still a political issue although perhaps not to the extent to which it is in America.  When you think about it that way, it makes perfect sense why its an issue in the States but not in lots of other countries.

This is one of the ominous consequences of describing your views as "progressive" - it means you sometimes actually forget to provide arguments because your opinions are going to become status quo and undisputed in the near future anyway.

There seems to be something about how one party or side gets incredibly smug just before the time that they get a sudden election loss - that sort of smugness is very reminiscent of some of the Tories that I spoke to just before the UK election.  Although perhaps it is more likely with people who are that type of 'progressive' - I'm not a fan of that term for very similar reasons, really.

[Person Man]

The fundamental difference between the US and Europe on this is both that the predominantly evangelical Religious Right doesn't really exist in the same way in Europe than it does in America: and in most places a legislative compromise was put together and there's no public will to re-open the conversation (and generally the pro-choice side is louder; at least it seems that way from my perspective) whilst in America it was decided through the courts system and one side was entirely dissatisfied with the outcome, so its natural that they'll carry on fighting it.  In the countries that didn't do this (Ireland and Poland come to mind) abortion is still a political issue although perhaps not to the extent to which it is in America.  When you think about it that way, it makes perfect sense why its an issue in the States but not in lots of other countries.

This is one of the ominous consequences of describing your views as "progressive" - it means you sometimes actually forget to provide arguments because your opinions are going to become status quo and undisputed in the near future anyway.

There seems to be something about how one party or side gets incredibly smug just before the time that they get a sudden election loss - that sort of smugness is very reminiscent of some of the Tories that I spoke to just before the UK election.  Although perhaps it is more likely with people who are that type of 'progressive' - I'm not a fan of that term for very similar reasons, really.

Would a post-Roe legislative compromise reduce abortion as an issue?

[IceAgeComing]

I mean I'm not an American so I'm not the one to answer that question.  Although I think that the length of time that its been a touchstone issue for as many people as it has plus the heated rhetoric around it, that seems rather unlikely.  Plus also: what compromise would be appropriate?  The law in Great Britain (not Northern Ireland - abortion is still illegal there although the ECHR has ruled that is incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights) is that abortion is legal until 24 weeks provided that a woman can convince two doctors that the procedure is needed - its the latter bit that is a lot more restrictive than the American law since its not truly abortion on demand, but considering that the BMA have recently voted to support totally decriminalising abortion before that point that is probably not the barrier that it sounds to most people.  Sure that's one of the more liberal laws in Europe and you could look at some of the other ones but I doubt that would be restrictive enough to most people on the other side of the issue.

Since I think that it might be important to clarify in this thread: my view on abortion is that I am generally pro-choice, I'm... incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of abortion being legal right up until birth so some limitation might be required, but I'm not educated enough to say exactly when.  I feel that the current laws in the UK are alright enough even though I'd like to see the doctors requirement removed but considering that has a very limited impact and that the vast majority of terminations happen very early in the pregnancy, its not something that I'd die on a hill over.

[Indy Texas]

Abortion is always going to be a 50/50 or 55/45 issue one way or the other.

Neither side will ever definitively "lose" on the issue.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Abortion is always going to be a 50/50 or 55/45 issue one way or the other.

Neither side will ever definitively "lose" on the issue.

Well, Europe went from supporting to opposing abortion, the pro-choice crowd lost for over a millennium.  If America became more religious then something similar might happen.

[Kingpoleon]

I mean I'm not an American so I'm not the one to answer that question.  Although I think that the length of time that its been a touchstone issue for as many people as it has plus the heated rhetoric around it, that seems rather unlikely.  Plus also: what compromise would be appropriate?  The law in Great Britain (not Northern Ireland - abortion is still illegal there although the ECHR has ruled that is incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights) is that abortion is legal until 24 weeks provided that a woman can convince two doctors that the procedure is needed - its the latter bit that is a lot more restrictive than the American law since its not truly abortion on demand, but considering that the BMA have recently voted to support totally decriminalising abortion before that point that is probably not the barrier that it sounds to most people.  Sure that's one of the more liberal laws in Europe and you could look at some of the other ones but I doubt that would be restrictive enough to most people on the other side of the issue.

Since I think that it might be important to clarify in this thread: my view on abortion is that I am generally pro-choice, I'm... incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of abortion being legal right up until birth so some limitation might be required, but I'm not educated enough to say exactly when.  I feel that the current laws in the UK are alright enough even though I'd like to see the doctors requirement removed but considering that has a very limited impact and that the vast majority of terminations happen very early in the pregnancy, its not something that I'd die on a hill over.

Interesting. Personally, I've talked to nurses involved in pre-natal and post-natal care, and my mom was a Labor and Delivery nurse. Generally, they're pro choice until 16-24 weeks. That said, it sounds like Europe is to the right of America on abortion, which is interesting since according to Atlas most Democrats would be rightists in Europe.