Pelosi is Confronted By Protesters Angry About Her Immigration Talks With Trump
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  Pelosi is Confronted By Protesters Angry About Her Immigration Talks With Trump
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Author Topic: Pelosi is Confronted By Protesters Angry About Her Immigration Talks With Trump  (Read 830 times)
The Ex-Factor
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« on: September 19, 2017, 07:22:48 AM »

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video here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYx6bYqM8qo

Looks to be a very unpopular and counterproductive move, even amongst liberals and other DREAMers. The replies here are almost uniformly negative:

https://twitter.com/CIYJA/status/909852432519200768
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Rookie Yinzer
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2017, 07:29:41 AM »

The entitlement. She is working to get the DACA initiatives etched into law and preventing the Wall. Like are you serious?! These people are so counterproductive and I'm sure other DREAMers don't agree with their actions.

A politician working with the GOP president to try and save you. Oh, the horror. *eyeroll*
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TheSaint250
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2017, 07:36:57 AM »

The entitlement. She is working to get the DACA initiatives etched into law and preventing the Wall. Like are you serious?! These people are so counterproductive and I'm sure other DREAMers don't agree with their actions.

A politician working with the GOP president to try and save you. Oh, the horror. *eyeroll*
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YE
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 08:24:16 AM »

The entitlement. She is working to get the DACA initiatives etched into law and preventing the Wall. Like are you serious?! These people are so counterproductive and I'm sure other DREAMers don't agree with their actions.

A politician working with the GOP president to try and save you. Oh, the horror. *eyeroll*
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 08:25:12 AM »

The entitlement. She is working to get the DACA initiatives etched into law and preventing the Wall. Like are you serious?! These people are so counterproductive and I'm sure other DREAMers don't agree with their actions.

A politician working with the GOP president to try and save you. Oh, the horror. *eyeroll*
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Chief Justice Keef
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2017, 08:31:35 AM »

The entitlement. She is working to get the DACA initiatives etched into law and preventing the Wall. Like are you serious?! These people are so counterproductive and I'm sure other DREAMers don't agree with their actions.

A politician working with the GOP president to try and save you. Oh, the horror. *eyeroll*

Yeah, the undocumented immigrants are the entitled ones.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 08:31:59 AM »

The entitlement. She is working to get the DACA initiatives etched into law and preventing the Wall. Like are you serious?! These people are so counterproductive and I'm sure other DREAMers don't agree with their actions.

A politician working with the GOP president to try and save you. Oh, the horror. *eyeroll*
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 08:32:07 AM »

Dreamers have a history of interrupting Democrats but not Republicans interestingly enough.
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The Ex-Factor
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2017, 08:48:38 AM »

Dreamers have a history of interrupting Democrats but not Republicans interestingly enough.

I used to work at UC Berkeley with some, uhh, extremely radical/far-left colleagues, one of whom took part in this Pelosi protest. Virtually all of their venom was directed towards Democrats for reasons I never understood. Obama and Hillary were just as bad as Bush as part of the neoliberal hegemonic capitalist global elite. Even Sanders was unacceptable to many as an enabler of white supremacy.
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Rookie Yinzer
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2017, 10:02:49 AM »

The entitlement. She is working to get the DACA initiatives etched into law and preventing the Wall. Like are you serious?! These people are so counterproductive and I'm sure other DREAMers don't agree with their actions.

A politician working with the GOP president to try and save you. Oh, the horror. *eyeroll*

Yeah, the undocumented immigrants are the entitled ones.
Yes. President Trump and the Republicans who control Congress do not want a path to citizenship. Period. Physically intimidating an ally and someone who has no real leverage in accomplishing that is counterproductive and entitled. At the end of the day I'd rather be protected under LAW not an executive order. They either take up their grievances with GOP or wait until Dems control all three branches to push for that.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2017, 10:06:33 AM »

I still don't know how terrible a path to citizenship is for people who haven't committed crimes. And by crimes I mean violent crimes or sale of illegal drugs (not marijuana). Get them on a path, have them start to pay back taxes, everyone wins. Don't see what's so bad about that.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2017, 10:08:14 AM »

You have to deport at least some people.

If you allow everyone who wants to come here to come here, they would out number the native born.

It will be literally impossible to offer any services (let alone additional services like universal healthcare and free college) because there will be more free riders than tax payers.

You cannot just let everyone in.

At some point, you have to favor people who are already citizens.

I say we start doing it before the country is no longer economically viable, rather than after.

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heatcharger
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 10:12:41 AM »

Aren't the Our Revolution goons behind this?
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Doimper
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 10:14:01 AM »

You have to deport at least some people.

If you allow everyone who wants to come here to come here, they would out number the native born.

It will be literally impossible to offer any services (let alone additional services like universal healthcare and free college) because there will be more free riders than tax payers.

You cannot just let everyone in.

At some point, you have to favor people who are already citizens.

I say we start doing it before the country is no longer economically viable, rather than after.



Jesus, undocumented immigrants are not "free riders". Do you think Juan from Mexico makes the enormous effort to get here and then sets up on a couch to eat Cheetos 24/7?
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2017, 10:22:50 AM »

You have to deport at least some people.

If you allow everyone who wants to come here to come here, they would out number the native born.

It will be literally impossible to offer any services (let alone additional services like universal healthcare and free college) because there will be more free riders than tax payers.

You cannot just let everyone in.

At some point, you have to favor people who are already citizens.

I say we start doing it before the country is no longer economically viable, rather than after.



Jesus, undocumented immigrants are not "free riders". Do you think Juan from Mexico makes the enormous effort to get here and then sets up on a couch to eat Cheetos 24/7?

No. He comes here to do menial labor which will incur no income tax while starting a family that will use lots of services.

47% of our population already use more in services than they pay in tax. We are already at a breaking point. No, I do not think people who come here from a third world country because they are economically desperate will end up being among the net contributors.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2017, 10:26:06 AM »

and I have no problem with a small number of people being net consumers of services. I have no problem with a small number of free riders.

but when the population is majority net consumers, we won't have enough revenue to provide decent services to anyone, net consumer or net producer.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2017, 10:31:30 AM »

The entitlement. She is working to get the DACA initiatives etched into law and preventing the Wall. Like are you serious?! These people are so counterproductive and I'm sure other DREAMers don't agree with their actions.

A politician working with the GOP president to try and save you. Oh, the horror. *eyeroll*

Yeah, the undocumented immigrants are the entitled ones.
Yes. President Trump and the Republicans who control Congress do not want a path to citizenship. Period. Physically intimidating an ally and someone who has no real leverage in accomplishing that is counterproductive and entitled. At the end of the day I'd rather be protected under LAW not an executive order. They either take up their grievances with GOP or wait until Dems control all three branches to push for that.
They don't bother Republicans because Republicans rightfully don't really care about them - sure, we accept their humanity and see the difficulties brought on by their parent's sins, but at the end of the day we see these particular Dreamers as who they are: a bunch of radicals with fantasies of creating Aztlan and kicking out the Yankees. These folks are our generations Brown Berets.
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Anna Komnene
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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2017, 10:32:38 AM »

The notion that undocumented people don't pay taxes is a total myth. Large numbers of them pay taxes, because you know, they actually care about America and want to contribute. They pay billions of dollars in federal and local taxes and they contribute billions of dollars to social security every year. Yet, they are ineligible to receive the vast majority of government services despite their contributions. Many undocumented people are basically altruistically donating their own money to pay for the services of American citizens. The real entitled people are the ones that think only American citizens should be eligible for services despite the contributions of millions of others to that pool of money.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2017, 10:33:31 AM »

Also of note: if I were some tooth pick sized Dreamer with a whispy mustache and a bad attitude, would I really want to go to a GOP event filled with Uncle Bubbas?
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2017, 10:46:03 AM »

The notion that undocumented people don't pay taxes is a total myth. Large numbers of them pay taxes, because you know, they actually care about America and want to contribute. They pay billions of dollars in federal and local taxes and they contribute billions of dollars to social security every year. Yet, they are ineligible to receive the vast majority of government services despite their contributions. Many undocumented people are basically altruistically donating their own money to pay for the services of American citizens. The real entitled people are the ones that think only American citizens should be eligible for services despite the contributions of millions of others to that pool of money.

Why do immigrants care about America? Why don't they pay their taxes to the government in their country of origin? What possesses someone from Mexico to care about American retirees? Not only that, but to care about American retirees more than Mexican retirees? It seems to me more likely that they don't actually care about American retirees. They aren't coming to America to clean toilets and run taco trucks because of altruism. They are coming to America because it benefits them and their families personally. If they pay taxes, it's because it's a sales tax they literally can't avoid paying or if they're using a fake social security number and end up paying social security taxes, it's because they have to in order to work and they don't have a  choice in the matter.

Even when they pay sales tax though, and even in the rarer case that they have to pay income tax (although they never usually do), their families still end up using more in services than they contribute in taxes.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2017, 10:49:08 AM »

You can't really believe Mexicans immigrate to America to help out native born Americans. Like you seriously can't believe that, can you? That's so dumb. Who do you think you are convincing with this argument? No anti-immigration person would believe this just because it's stupid and even a pro-immigration person would be less inclined to support immigration if you paint it as a sacrifice (mostly) brown people are making for the sake of (mostly) white people.
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Mr. Reactionary
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2017, 11:05:32 AM »

This reminds me of the broken logic Paul Broun offered when the pubs voted on a 20 week abortion ban a few years back. He refused to support a ban that exempted rape/health of the mother, and so assuming he really believed that abortion is murder, he would rather all fetuses be murdered than save most while not saving the rest. All or nothing is a fool's errand.


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Anna Komnene
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2017, 11:54:09 AM »

https://itep.org/immigration/

http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/19/news/economy/undocumented-immigrant-taxes/index.html

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-03-01/study-undocumented-immigrants-pay-billions-in-taxes

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/09/undocumented-immigrants-and-taxes/499604/

Mortimer, I'm just stating facts. Just because you want to believe something is true to fit your worldview doesn't mean that it has any basis in reality.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2017, 12:13:19 PM »


None of these links go against anything I said.

These links say about half of illegal immigrants pay Social Security (which means half don't).

These links say they pay sales tax, which I acknowledged but sales tax doesn't fund the programs immigrants and their families use.

These links certainly don't say anything about immigrants immigrating out of altruistic love for American retirees.
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RejectedOne123
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2017, 12:22:30 PM »

Mortimer, I'm just stating facts. Just because you want to believe something is true to fit your worldview doesn't mean that it has any basis in reality.

The articles that you cited do not particularly invalidate Mortimer's claims, as the payment of social security taxes through the use of fraudulent social security cards highlights the amount of other taxes that are evaded.

From the first article itself " Out of the nearly 11.1 million undocumented immigrants estimated to be living in the U.S., Pew Research projected that there were about 8 million in the workforce in 2014. Nearly half, or 3.4 million, of those workers paid Social Security taxes, according to 2014 estimates from the Social Security administration."  So in other words only about half of the immigrants who could pay Social Security taxes actually did - probably because social security fraud was necessary to obtain employment as opposed to any genuine altruism, as indicated in this excerpt from the last article:

"It works like this: Many immigrants who aren’t authorized to work in the United States buy fake Social Security cards and present them to their employers, who either don’t know they are fake or don’t look too closely. When the employer submits a W-2 form and a tax payment on those workers’ behalf to the Social Security Administration, the federal government holds onto those payroll taxes, even if the Social Security number isn’t linked to anyone on file. And then, a large chunk of that money ends up in the Social Security trust funds, from which retirement benefits are doled out to aging Americans."

This is to say nothing about the non-payroll income taxes, and state and local taxes that are often evaded as well in order to prevent having their illegal status exposed by the authorities. As for the taking in more in benefits than they pay in taxes, that depends on how one defines "benefit" as most illegal immigrants do not qualify for federal welfare programs.  However state and local governments do bear the burden of educating the children of such immigrants and maintaining the infrastructure that they use daily which would indicate a high cost of illegal immigration in that respect.
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