Fighting 'The Insurgency' in New Orleans

[Storebought]

If the military can deal with 1750 deaths in Iraq for no good reason, they can deal with a few people with 9mm pistols in New Orleans.

The US armed forces mean absolutely nothing to you, do they?

What sort of argument is that?

Expecting the US military to keep civil control of urban rapists, murderers, and lowlifes in an American city is not their job description. That's a local/state responsibility.

I must disagree with here; I will side with jfern on this issue. The Constitution explicitly provides:

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."

Clearly, if the Governor or Legislature of Louisiana requests, the United States would be obliged to maintain order and protect against "domestic violence" in New Orleans; the Armed Forces should be used if necessary.

Then I am corrected.

*BUT: You must admit -- having the US armed forces firing (to kill, as they are ought) on American citizens is, to say the least, disgusting.

*On third thought: Washington did no less in western PA during the Whiskey Rebellion (I think), on the recommendation of Hamilton. So, in which case, it will be the President's resonsibility as CIC to order the soldiers to kill other Americans.

And you think the left wants to impeach Bush now over high gas prices...

[Emsworth]

*BUT: You must admit -- having the US armed forces firing (to kill, as they are ought) on American citizens is, to say the least, disgusting.

Perhaps, but when necessary, it must be done.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's not the only example. The Marines fired on John Brown and his companions under Buchanan. Lincoln effectively ordered the use of troops against American citizens during the Civil War (obviously, a much more serious case). Cleveland used the Army to break the Pullman Strike. Under Hoover, the military attacked the Bonus Expeditionary Force. Several other instances may be cited.

[Storebought]

*BUT: You must admit -- having the US armed forces firing (to kill, as they are ought) on American citizens is, to say the least, disgusting.

Perhaps, but when necessary, it must be done.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

That's not the only example. The Marines fired on John Brown and his companions under Buchanan. Lincoln effectively ordered the use of troops against American citizens during the Civil War (obviously, a much more serious case). Cleveland used the Army to break the Pullman Strike. Under Hoover, the military attacked the Bonus Expeditionary Force. Several other instances may be cited.

I'll neglect the Civil War instances.

But in both cases, those were organized cadres who wanted to establish some sort type of extralegal government (the same reason why the Klan was banned in Oklahoma during the 1920s).

The looters in New Orleans are just plain violent criminals.

[J. J.]

Please keep in mind that there are not that many looters.

The population is about 450,000.  80% got out prior to the storm (360,000). 

You had at least 30,000 in the Superdome and Convention Center.  Probably more as when they started to evacuated some, more came in.  There were also a few other shelters.

The Coast Guard has saved 9,500 trapped by floodwaters.  There are at least another 500 trapped, possibly ten to fifteen times that number.

A few people drove out after the storm hit and the flooding started.  Many of those that are in the non-flooded areas are either elderly or disabled.

None of these groups are looting.

[Storebought]

Please keep in mind that there are not that many looters.

The population is about 450,000.  80% got out prior to the storm (360,000). 

You had at least 30,000 in the Superdome and Convention Center.  Probably more as when they started to evacuated some, more came in.  There were also a few other shelters.

The Coast Guard has saved 9,500 trapped by floodwaters.  There are at least another 500 trapped, possibly ten to fifteen times that number.

A few people drove out after the storm hit and the flooding started.  Many of those that are in the non-flooded areas are either elderly or disabled.

None of these groups are looting.

But even the looters need to be evacuated, too. And that is where the question comes in

Emsworth would see the US military use lethal force to restore enough order to get even the creeps out. I would prefer civil authorities like the NG to do that.

It seems like splitting hairs, but the idea of American armed forces shooting American citizens seems degraded and foreign. Like one step towards a Roman Empire. Now, National Guard shooting looters to kill, I have no concern whatsoever. The NOPD wouldn't, so the next level of authority must.

[Emsworth]

Emsworth would see the US military use lethal force to restore enough order to get even the creeps out. I would prefer civil authorities like the NG to do that.

Not necessarily. I would also prefer that the non-military authorites take care of the problem, though if they cannot, then the military should be called in. The National Guard should suffice at this stage.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Please keep in mind that there are not that many looters.

The population is about 450,000.  80% got out prior to the storm (360,000). 

You had at least 30,000 in the Superdome and Convention Center.  Probably more as when they started to evacuated some, more came in.  There were also a few other shelters.

The Coast Guard has saved 9,500 trapped by floodwaters.  There are at least another 500 trapped, possibly ten to fifteen times that number.

A few people drove out after the storm hit and the flooding started.  Many of those that are in the non-flooded areas are either elderly or disabled.

None of these groups are looting.

But even the looters need to be evacuated, too. And that is where the question comes in

Emsworth would see the US military use lethal force to restore enough order to get even the creeps out. I would prefer civil authorities like the NG to do that.

It seems like splitting hairs, but the idea of American armed forces shooting American citizens seems degraded and foreign. Like one step towards a Roman Empire. Now, National Guard shooting looters to kill, I have no concern whatsoever. The NOPD wouldn't, so the next level of authority must.

If the people shoot at the troops, they should expect to be shot back at. Looting food should be allowed. Obviously some intermediate methods apply to the intermediate cases.

[J. J.]

Please keep in mind that there are not that many looters.

The population is about 450,000.  80% got out prior to the storm (360,000). 

You had at least 30,000 in the Superdome and Convention Center.  Probably more as when they started to evacuated some, more came in.  There were also a few other shelters.

The Coast Guard has saved 9,500 trapped by floodwaters.  There are at least another 500 trapped, possibly ten to fifteen times that number.

A few people drove out after the storm hit and the flooding started.  Many of those that are in the non-flooded areas are either elderly or disabled.

None of these groups are looting.

But even the looters need to be evacuated, too. And that is where the question comes in

Emsworth would see the US military use lethal force to restore enough order to get even the creeps out. I would prefer civil authorities like the NG to do that.

It seems like splitting hairs, but the idea of American armed forces shooting American citizens seems degraded and foreign. Like one step towards a Roman Empire. Now, National Guard shooting looters to kill, I have no concern whatsoever. The NOPD wouldn't, so the next level of authority must.

If the people shoot at the troops, they should expect to be shot back at. Looting food should be allowed. Obviously some intermediate methods apply to the intermediate cases.

1/3 to 2/3 of the NOPD quit.  Now, that is a local leadership problem.

Serious question, is the violence, e.g. the shootings, any worse than in a normal night in NOLA?

[Storebought]

Please keep in mind that there are not that many looters.

The population is about 450,000.  80% got out prior to the storm (360,000). 

You had at least 30,000 in the Superdome and Convention Center.  Probably more as when they started to evacuated some, more came in.  There were also a few other shelters.

The Coast Guard has saved 9,500 trapped by floodwaters.  There are at least another 500 trapped, possibly ten to fifteen times that number.

A few people drove out after the storm hit and the flooding started.  Many of those that are in the non-flooded areas are either elderly or disabled.

None of these groups are looting.

But even the looters need to be evacuated, too. And that is where the question comes in

Emsworth would see the US military use lethal force to restore enough order to get even the creeps out. I would prefer civil authorities like the NG to do that.

It seems like splitting hairs, but the idea of American armed forces shooting American citizens seems degraded and foreign. Like one step towards a Roman Empire. Now, National Guard shooting looters to kill, I have no concern whatsoever. The NOPD wouldn't, so the next level of authority must.

If the people shoot at the troops, they should expect to be shot back at. Looting food should be allowed. Obviously some intermediate methods apply to the intermediate cases.

1/3 to 2/3 of the NOPD quit.  Now, that is a local leadership problem.

Serious question, is the violence, e.g. the shootings, any worse than in a normal night in NOLA?

Serious answer: Yes, but only amongst themselves in certain precincts in the city, particularly Orleans East.

The rest of the city would never degenerate to that level, even the poor non-project parts between Claiborne Ave and St Charles.

The sniping, now that's unprecedented.