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Author Topic: Capital Punishment  (Read 13260 times)
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StatesRights
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« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2004, 12:36:47 pm »
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One person murdered by a piece of human garbage is to many!
True, but the reality is that nothing the state does will ever fully prevent murders.  The state does not have to participate in the murduring however, particularly when there is ANY chance the state is murduring an innocent person.  Better that 10 guilty men go free than that 1 innocent man is imprisoned.  This concept increses in significance exponentially with the death penalty in my opinion.


If you remove someone right to live you yourself should have your right to live removed.
1) you failed to address the question of executing an innocent person;
2) gustaf is correct;
3) I suppose you suggest executing drunk drivers who kill others in accidents - that would make sense using your logic.  Same goes for any accident's you "cause", whether through negligence, recklessness or even bad luck.

Innocent people being jailed or executed is EXTREMELY rare. And if a person killed another intentionally they deserve to die.
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bejkuy
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« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2004, 01:43:10 pm »
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What bothers me is, despite our division over capital punishment, there seems to be a consensus that life in prison should be a parade of horribiles. Rather than recognizing the necessity of prisons as an instrument of rehabilitation, we seek to degrade them, demean their dignity, oppress them, and harm them, until, yes, they will lash out against us. I am aghast that anyone would be willing to treat other humans with such stark inhumanity, and find their existence valueless. They may have committed a crime, but society does not demonstrate its superiority to a person and establish its right to judge by similar barbarism.

Wow!  I can't believe I find myself agreeing with Migrendal.  Why would we wan't to engage in torture?  Execution would be more humane than this.  

As a volunteer at the local prison ( I do prison minsistry) I can tell you that NOBODY wants to be in prison, no matter how nice it is.  It is a dark place.  You are confined, lose your privacy, and are subject to violence (from other felons).  Cable TV and a weight room wouldn't make me want to be in prison.

As a side note, I will give you my two-cents on prison and capitol punishment.  I don't believe in long prison stays.  The overwhelming majority of people sent to prison become harder criminals through there stay, regardless of the "rehabilitation" efforts.  The only peope that seem to change are those that have a LEGITIMATE faith experience.  (thats why I volunteer)  What good do you do a man by caging him like a dog?

bejkuy's plan-

Require restituation for property crimes and lesser violent crimes.  Force peope to "make it right".  If they don't have means to pay- require them to check in to a hard labor work camp or something comparable.  Criminals would have the satisfaction of nowing that they really paid their debt to society.

Make execution more common- Murder, rape, kidnapping- deal with the problem quick and clean.  Allow only 1 appeal.  All executions should be held in the public square- preferrable by the hanging.  This would allow society, young and old, to see the consequence of evil.  

Drugs- as much as I personally hate them and their effects, I would legalize drugs.  Way too many people are in prison for petty drug offences.

My plan-inhumane you may say?  

-Locking a man up for 20 years is inhumane.  
-Allowing a 22 year old kid to be gang raped his first day in prison is inhumane.  (happens all the time)
-Destroying a man's spirit is inhumane.
-Not giving a man a chance for real restitution is inhumane.
-Depriving a man of sunlight is inhumane.

There are things much less humane than execution.


 
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Gustaf
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« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2004, 02:27:40 pm »
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What bothers me is, despite our division over capital punishment, there seems to be a consensus that life in prison should be a parade of horribiles. Rather than recognizing the necessity of prisons as an instrument of rehabilitation, we seek to degrade them, demean their dignity, oppress them, and harm them, until, yes, they will lash out against us. I am aghast that anyone would be willing to treat other humans with such stark inhumanity, and find their existence valueless. They may have committed a crime, but society does not demonstrate its superiority to a person and establish its right to judge by similar barbarism.

Wow!  I can't believe I find myself agreeing with Migrendal.  Why would we wan't to engage in torture?  Execution would be more humane than this.  

As a volunteer at the local prison ( I do prison minsistry) I can tell you that NOBODY wants to be in prison, no matter how nice it is.  It is a dark place.  You are confined, lose your privacy, and are subject to violence (from other felons).  Cable TV and a weight room wouldn't make me want to be in prison.

As a side note, I will give you my two-cents on prison and capitol punishment.  I don't believe in long prison stays.  The overwhelming majority of people sent to prison become harder criminals through there stay, regardless of the "rehabilitation" efforts.  The only peope that seem to change are those that have a LEGITIMATE faith experience.  (thats why I volunteer)  What good do you do a man by caging him like a dog?

bejkuy's plan-

Require restituation for property crimes and lesser violent crimes.  Force peope to "make it right".  If they don't have means to pay- require them to check in to a hard labor work camp or something comparable.  Criminals would have the satisfaction of nowing that they really paid their debt to society.

Make execution more common- Murder, rape, kidnapping- deal with the problem quick and clean.  Allow only 1 appeal.  All executions should be held in the public square- preferrable by the hanging.  This would allow society, young and old, to see the consequence of evil.  

Drugs- as much as I personally hate them and their effects, I would legalize drugs.  Way too many people are in prison for petty drug offences.

My plan-inhumane you may say?  

-Locking a man up for 20 years is inhumane.  
-Allowing a 22 year old kid to be gang raped his first day in prison is inhumane.  (happens all the time)
-Destroying a man's spirit is inhumane.
-Not giving a man a chance for real restitution is inhumane.
-Depriving a man of sunlight is inhumane.

There are things much less humane than execution.


 

Hm, interesting argument...but hanging people in the town square seems very mediaeval to me. I maintain that society shouldn't get too barbaric.

'Law is reason, free from passion' as Aristotle said. Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2004, 02:56:22 pm »
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While I think that executing people is just the capstone of the inhumanity, we need to reform the prison system so that prisoners may have more access to the outside world, better access to educational, legal, and vocational services, and have their mental, physical and sexual health attended to.
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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2004, 04:10:48 pm »
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I'm most def for the death penalty at its current forms, jails are overcrowding and costing the taxpayers more and more money...
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« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2004, 05:52:12 pm »
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While I think that executing people is just the capstone of the inhumanity, we need to reform the prison system so that prisoners may have more access to the outside world, better access to educational, legal, and vocational services, and have their mental, physical and sexual health attended to.

All of these things cleanse the outside of the cup.  These things are good, but unless the heart of the person is changed, the inside of the cup, the outside of the cup will soon be dirty again.

Do you understand what I am saying?  We can clean up a person and give him education and job skills, but if he has the same substance in him that allowed him to brutally rape someone than the "transformation" will only last so long.

I deal with this stuff a lot.  You can't educate evil out of a man.  

Is there hope for those in prison, yes, but they need a heart transplant.  In my experience, this only comes through a legitimate religious experience.
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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2004, 05:54:30 pm »
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I'm most def for the death penalty at its current forms, jails are overcrowding and costing the taxpayers more and more money...

While I agree jails are overcrowded, it is cheaper to keep somebody in prison for life than execute them(I know that's wierd).

P.S. Where in Alaska are you? Ever been to Kodiak? I used to live there.
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« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2004, 06:04:51 pm »
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He's not from Alaska, he's just fooling around.
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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2004, 06:11:29 pm »
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He's not from Alaska, he's just fooling around.

Ok
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bejkuy
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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2004, 10:53:14 pm »
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Don't leave me hanging guys.  What do you think of my ideas?
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« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2004, 01:27:19 am »
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Be. I do not feel prisoners should have better access to education and health then the poor. If these people committed a terrible crime their justice should be swift and fair. It is not inhumane for them in jail. We are being far to easy on them. We need to give them hard labor and get back to the things the French did in French Guinea.
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« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2004, 11:21:37 am »
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If you ever wonder why the world is the way it is, just read the recent post made by some here. Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2004, 12:50:05 pm »
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bej, all your ideas had merit except for the increasing of executions.  I understand your reasoning, just disagree with the conclusion.  Maybe by implementing some of the other ideas you have, the increase in executions wouldn't be necessary.  Although many here have pointed out how rare it is for an innocent person to be executed, cutting appeals would change that.  Personally, I oppose the possibility that ANY innocents could EVER be executed, but any plan that increases the chances of executions of innocent people is wrongheaded, in my opinion.
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bejkuy
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« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2004, 03:25:31 pm »
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Thanks to all for the imput.

At the risk of sounding like a religious fanatic, I will tell you that I based by theory on a a combination of personal experiences in prison (as a volunteer-they aint got nothin' on me) and pre-davidic Israel.  

There is no way in the world this would ever be implemented, but I think it would probably work.  It would have surely worked in America 100 years ago.  
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bejkuy
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« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2004, 03:28:03 pm »
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bej, all your ideas had merit except for the increasing of executions.  I understand your reasoning, just disagree with the conclusion.  Maybe by implementing some of the other ideas you have, the increase in executions wouldn't be necessary.  Although many here have pointed out how rare it is for an innocent person to be executed, cutting appeals would change that.  Personally, I oppose the possibility that ANY innocents could EVER be executed, but any plan that increases the chances of executions of innocent people is wrongheaded, in my opinion.

The whole system would fall apart if there were no executions because there would be no long-term prison facilities.

Also, aren't most people who are "wrongly" convicted already in possession of a rap sheet a mile long.  Many of these individuals have done a lot of stuff they never got caught for as well.
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« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2004, 03:28:58 pm »
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bej, all your ideas had merit except for the increasing of executions.  I understand your reasoning, just disagree with the conclusion.  Maybe by implementing some of the other ideas you have, the increase in executions wouldn't be necessary.  Although many here have pointed out how rare it is for an innocent person to be executed, cutting appeals would change that.  Personally, I oppose the possibility that ANY innocents could EVER be executed, but any plan that increases the chances of executions of innocent people is wrongheaded, in my opinion.

The whole system would fall apart if there were no executions because there would be no long-term prison facilities.

Also, aren't most people who are "wrongly" convicted already in possession of a rap sheet a mile long.  Many of these individuals have done a lot of stuff they never got caught for as well.
so we should execute people because they "might" have commited a crime?
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bejkuy
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« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2004, 03:36:49 pm »
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bej, all your ideas had merit except for the increasing of executions.  I understand your reasoning, just disagree with the conclusion.  Maybe by implementing some of the other ideas you have, the increase in executions wouldn't be necessary.  Although many here have pointed out how rare it is for an innocent person to be executed, cutting appeals would change that.  Personally, I oppose the possibility that ANY innocents could EVER be executed, but any plan that increases the chances of executions of innocent people is wrongheaded, in my opinion.

The whole system would fall apart if there were no executions because there would be no long-term prison facilities.

Also, aren't most people who are "wrongly" convicted already in possession of a rap sheet a mile long.  Many of these individuals have done a lot of stuff they never got caught for as well.
so we should execute people because they "might" have commited a crime?

Did I say that?  Please attempt to read more carefully.
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elcorazon
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« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2004, 04:20:46 pm »
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bej, all your ideas had merit except for the increasing of executions.  I understand your reasoning, just disagree with the conclusion.  Maybe by implementing some of the other ideas you have, the increase in executions wouldn't be necessary.  Although many here have pointed out how rare it is for an innocent person to be executed, cutting appeals would change that.  Personally, I oppose the possibility that ANY innocents could EVER be executed, but any plan that increases the chances of executions of innocent people is wrongheaded, in my opinion.

The whole system would fall apart if there were no executions because there would be no long-term prison facilities.

Also, aren't most people who are "wrongly" convicted already in possession of a rap sheet a mile long.  Many of these individuals have done a lot of stuff they never got caught for as well.
so we should execute people because they "might" have commited a crime?

Did I say that?  Please attempt to read more carefully.
You did not say that, but think about the implications of what you did say. MOST wrongly convicted people have a long rap sheet. MANY of these have done stuff they didn't get caught for.  
Well, what about those that DON'T have a long rap sheet and you certainly aren't suggesting people be punished for crimes we don't know they committed are you?  Frankly that's barbaric.  It's like a constant state of war, which is the scenario where people who "might" harm you are therefore killed.  I don't want to live in that society.
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