Prayer

[WalterMitty]

goddammit.  I just broke a wine glass.  it's one that I stole from that restaurant above us from when we lived in Manhattan.  the last one, in fact.  AAAAAAAAAgh. 

you use glasses to drink your wine?

i prefer just drinking out of the bottle, especially since once i open a bottle,itll be gone within an hour or so. 

by the way angus, do you like rum?

[Max Power]

Isn't there empirical evidence that prayer kinda works?

so, you bastards were just praying for me to break some glass?  apparently it works.

I didn't pray you'd break a glass. Just...something....else.... >_>

[angus]

well, piss on you then.  you're lucky I don't pray.  I'd pray for old-school wrath.

of course prayer works.  The Buddha understood this.  So did Saint Francis.  So do most psychologists.  Mind over matter and all that.  folks have wills to live that modern medicine can't quite explain.  Whether your prayer is in the form of "Holy mary mother of god pray for us sinners" or whether it's in the form of "You sick whitecoat bastards, you just take money from us schmucks to pay the mortgage on your mansions and the insurance on your lexus.  well, screw it.  I don't trust any of you.  I'll outlive all of you", it has been documented time and again that a patient came back from the brink of death.  Specialists stunned.  The prayer that is sacred or the prayer that is profane, all can overcome adversity.  Either way, the power of positive thinking is well documented.  It can be mono-, poly-, or atheistic, or not theistic at all even, but it does seem to work in some cases.  This is not well understood, but it is well known.  Mother was into something that she called "meditation" when I was a kid.  This was in the 70s, and it was all the rage among middle-aged women.  She got some books and incense and candles.  She'd get herself into the yoga position and go om ma ne pad mi ha.  or something like that.  she wasn't a Hare or anything.  You just have to realize things were different back then.  she'd let me join her.  Mind you, I'm not spiritual or anything, and usually I'd just giggle and piss her off so she'd send me out of the room.  but it was kinda fun.  I think it worked for her, though.  honestly.

I do like rum.  usually not straight, though.  Usually with fruit juice.  Or coca-cola.  Take that in a glass too.  Different sort of glass, though. 

[angus]

Forgot to mention, Walter:  Ron Pampero.  It's my favorite rum.  Discovered it in El Remate, Guatemala about five years ago.  I was hanging around with a couple of stoners.  One named Lou from Texas, who wanted to try to set up a bicycle rental shop to rent cycles to folks so they could ride the trails in the Peten jungle.  Up around Uaxactun and Tikal and El Mirador.  Pretty country.  But he was always loaning the bicycles out for free to locals.  Didn't have the heart to charge them money.  The other guy was a tall, thin, geeky Dane named Hans.  They were out of weed, and hard up, so they traded me some Rum for some pretty decent smoke I'd brought in from Belize.  Gave me a little 375-ml bottle of what I though would be bunk.  It was golden and viscous.  Not white, nor really dark like bacardi 151, but golden.  Like beer.  One taste and I was hooked.  Delicious, it was.  It's Venezuelan rum.  I always manage to find it in Central and South America.  "Tienes Ron Pampero?  Ron de Venezuela?"  Simon, claro que si.  But it's a bit hard to come by in places like California and Mississippi.  I did manage to locate it in a place called marty's liquors, on the corner of Commonwealth Avenue and Harvard Avenue in Allston.  Take the Green Line T out past packards corner.  Two more stops.  Get off at Harvard Avenue.  There's a Pizzeria Uno there.  Across the street you'll see Marty's.  They have a hell of a selection of hot sauces from all over, by the way.

Drink Pampero with coca cola or even with pineapple juice.  It's delicious.

[KEmperor]

well, piss on you then.  you're lucky I don't pray.  I'd pray for old-school wrath.

of course prayer works.  The Buddha understood this.  So did Saint Francis.  So do most psychologists.  Mind over matter and all that.  folks have wills to live that modern medicine can't quite explain.  Whether your prayer is in the form of "Holy mary mother of god pray for us sinners" or whether it's in the form of "You sick whitecoat bastards, you just take money from us schmucks to pay the mortgage on your mansions and the insurance on your lexus.  well, screw it.  I don't trust any of you.  I'll outlive all of you", it has been documented time and again that a patient came back from the brink of death.  Specialists stunned.  The prayer that is sacred or the prayer that is profane, all can overcome adversity.  Either way, the power of positive thinking is well documented.  It can be mono-, poly-, or atheistic, or not theistic at all even, but it does seem to work in some cases.  This is not well understood, but it is well known.  Mother was into something that she called "meditation" when I was a kid.  This was in the 70s, and it was all the rage among middle-aged women.  She got some books and incense and candles.  She'd get herself into the yoga position and go om ma ne pad mi ha.  or something like that.  she wasn't a Hare or anything.  You just have to realize things were different back then.  she'd let me join her.  Mind you, I'm not spiritual or anything, and usually I'd just giggle and piss her off so she'd send me out of the room.  but it was kinda fun.  I think it worked for her, though.  honestly.

I do like rum.  usually not straight, though.  Usually with fruit juice.  Or coca-cola.  Take that in a glass too.  Different sort of glass, though. 

If you filter through the rant, you will come out with a very good explanation.  Positive thinking.

[King]

"I warn everyone who hears the prophetic words in this thread: if anyone adds to them, PD will add to him the plagues described in this thread, and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic thread, PD will take away his share in the cereal of Life and in the other breakfast foods described in this thread."

Retaliation 12:04pm

[J. J.]

Ah, why do you assume that the answer to a prayer is always yes?

[patrick1]

  I did manage to locate it in a place called marty's liquors, on the corner of Commonwealth Avenue and Harvard Avenue in Allston.  Take the Green Line T out past packards corner.  Two more stops.  Get off at Harvard Avenue.  There's a Pizzeria Uno there.  Across the street you'll see Marty's.  They have a hell of a selection of hot sauces from all over, by the way.

Drink Pampero with coca cola or even with pineapple juice.  It's delicious.

LOL, Marty's been there.  I lived in Brighton/Allston for a bit and there are  Quite a few fit BU/BC girls in that area.  I  lived in a Brazilian area- couldn't fathom that- bastards could not make a pizza. 

[Gabu]

Isn't there empirical evidence that prayer kinda works?

Wow, discussion that is actually relevant to my initial post; I thought that this topic was long dead.

Anyways, no, or at least, there isn't evidence that the prayer itself is what causes the betterment.  In cases where the patients knew that they were being prayed for, there was actually a noticeable decrease in their recovery time over those who were not being prayed for.  However, in cases where the patients didn't know that they were being prayed for, there was no noticeable difference.  This indicates that it's more a placebo effect than the prayer itself, at least in the case of sick people: if the people think that they're going to get better, it's more likely that they will.

Ah, why do you assume that the answer to a prayer is always yes?

I don't think that it's always yes (if it ever is); my questions were mainly purely conjecture regarding the implications if the answer is always or even sometimes yes, given how many people feel that if you pray for something, it will happen.  My initial post was not really about whether or not prayer actually works (though you're welcome to discuss that), but rather what it would imply if it did.  I just think it's an interesting thing to examine.

[angus]

If you filter through the rant...

dammit.  I really need to relax, I suppose.

yeah, who knows....

"Let me pass this test."

"Let me defeat my enemy."

"Let me clain this island for the King of England."

"Let me beat this pancreatic cancer."

"Let me win this race."

maybe prayer results in the pituitary gland or the hypothalamus producing certain chemicals that make us more confident.  maybe it's elevated levels of serotonin in the blood which is caused by prayer/meditation.  whatever.  doesn't matter, really.  but it seems to work.  my sister with her rosary, my wife with her little buddha statue, my mother with her 70s fad.  they all pray for themselves and they pray for me.  I suppose I need it.  I'm a man, and like most men I'm not spiritual.  it's probably why men live shorter lives, on average, than women.  men live violent, stressful lives and die of acute myocardial infarction at a young age.  it's said that cats live violent lives and die violent deaths.  bonobos, a matriarchal ape species, live peacefully with their environment.  I've never prayed and have generally lived like a cat.  at least before I was married.  the booze and coffee doesn't help either.  but not all men, some are in touch with their spiritual sides.  they live less like cats and more like bonobos.  they pray.  and they live, on average, as long as women.  of course there are a handful of mannish women (you know who you are!) who are as obstinate, irreverent, and unspiritual as we men.  but, by and large, we don't pray, we die of stress.  I think this cross party and cultural boundaries.  Gabu's headed for a stroke as well.  I can relate to that, buddy.

oh well, life is short, if you add up the minutes I don't waste in that meditative way, then I'll probably have as many real living minutes as those meditative types.  So there! 

[Platypus]

im gonna miss you angus, come the eventual day when our paths no longer cross through a tangle of wiring, an ocean and probably some satellites.