Day 36: Oklahoma

[MaC]

Every county for Bush, Bush wins about 66-34
Oklahoma has some really fascist and draconian ballot measures as no third party was allowed on, not even as a write-in!  F--- You Oklahoma state government.

Okay, now that my rant's over, discuss.

[memphis]

An interesting fact about Oklahoma is that there is no urban/rural divide as there is in the rest of the country. The counties that contain Oklahoma City and Tulsa voted just as Republican as the rest of the state. It looks like the further west you go the more Republican the terrain gets, but even the Eastern part went for Bush. This state is definately a Republican lock. The Dems haven't won here since LBJ's 1964 landslide.
Can anybody offer an explaination for why the Socialists used to do extremely well here in the early twentieth century? What has changed to drive the state so far to the right?

[minionofmidas]

An interesting fact about Oklahoma is that there is no urban/rural divide as there is in the rest of the country. The counties that contain Oklahoma City and Tulsa voted just as Republican as the rest of the state.

Ah, but there used to be one. Oklahoma City and Tulsa long used to be much more Republican than the state.

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Some really wild swings there...lots of blue-collar christian fundamentalist Dems in eastern Oklahoma that voted Republican in the presidentials and the senate. Big turnout increase too IIRC. Guess it's because John Kerry is in favor of rampant lesbianism in school bathrooms or something.

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Hm...decline in poverty rates, decline in rural population density, rise of social issues. (Except race. That issue seems to have declined in importance. One of the Dems regular election time trump cards against the Socialists used to be that Engels was for mixing all the races.)

[Democratic Hawk]

It's hard to believe that Democrats run the GOP pretty close in Oklahoma in terms of party I/D but they are pretty conservative in their orientation (32% of them supported Bush in 2004) - and I don't expect the state to be Democrat any time soon

As Democrats go, Clinton did pretty well - probably assisted by the Perot factor

Dave

[minionofmidas]

It's hard to believe that Democrats run the GOP pretty close in Oklahoma in terms of party I/D but they are pretty conservative in their orientation (32% of them supported Bush in 2004) - and I don't expect the state to be Democrat any time soon

As Democrats go, Clinton did pretty well - probably assisted by the Perot factor

Dave

Or/and perhaps by the factor that he's from Arkansas, and so are many people in eastern oklahoma?

[Democratic Hawk]

It's hard to believe that Democrats run the GOP pretty close in Oklahoma in terms of party I/D but they are pretty conservative in their orientation (32% of them supported Bush in 2004) - and I don't expect the state to be Democrat any time soon

As Democrats go, Clinton did pretty well - probably assisted by the Perot factor

Dave

Or/and perhaps by the factor that he's from Arkansas, and so are many people in eastern oklahoma?

Good point . I've just looked at the results and he had pretty solid support from the south eastern part of the state

Dave

[minionofmidas]

It's hard to believe that Democrats run the GOP pretty close in Oklahoma in terms of party I/D but they are pretty conservative in their orientation (32% of them supported Bush in 2004) - and I don't expect the state to be Democrat any time soon

As Democrats go, Clinton did pretty well - probably assisted by the Perot factor

Dave

Or/and perhaps by the factor that he's from Arkansas, and so are many people in eastern oklahoma?

Good point . I've just looked at the results and he had pretty solid support from the south-eastern part of the state

Dave

I'm not sure if it's relevant; it just occurred to me.

[WalterMitty]

the state is certainly trending more republican.

democrats used to do pretty well in the 'little dixie' portions of the sooner state.

look at how well mike dukakis did in parts of oklahoma compared to john kerry.

[Democratic Hawk]

the state is certainly trending more republican.

democrats used to do pretty well in the 'little dixie' portions of the sooner state.

look at how well mike dukakis did in parts of oklahoma compared to john kerry.

I would have thought that Bentsen would have had much appeal there though

Dave

[minionofmidas]

Well it's no contradiction. Sure Bentsen was a reassurance, but that doesn't change the fact they did vote for electors pledged to Dukakis.

I sometimes think the Republican gains in traditionally Dem backwoods areas since 1988 are more to do with the spread of cable tv than anything else.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Interesting little fact about eastern Oklahoma; all the counties in the OK-2 Congressional District voted for the Democratic candidate in what was an open race.
Hell of a lot of ticket-splitting going on there.

[minionofmidas]

Interesting little fact about eastern Oklahoma; all the counties in the OK-2 Congressional District voted for the Democratic candidate in what was an open race.
Hell of a lot of ticket-splitting going on there.

Boren won every single county? Wow.

[memphis]

Interesting little fact about eastern Oklahoma; all the counties in the OK-2 Congressional District voted for the Democratic candidate in what was an open race.
Hell of a lot of ticket-splitting going on there.

Boren won every single county? Wow.

There were only three counties (out of about 25) where he got less than 60%.

[MaC]

check this out.  Gerald Ford won it by a hair in '76

[memphis]

check this out.  Gerald Ford won it by a hair in '76

Well, a lot has changed since 1976, when the Democrat won every state in the old Confederacy except Virginia and the Republican won the entire East Coast.

[nclib]

I find it interesting how much better Bush did in 2004 than in 2000.

Social issues, perhaps?

What parts of Oklahoma swung to Bush the strongest?

[memphis]

check this out.  Gerald Ford won it by a hair in '76

Well, a lot has changed since 1976, when the Democrat won every state in the old Confederacy except Virginia and the Republican won the entire East Coast.

Sorry, I meant West Coast.

[Cubby]

How come Oklahoma Native Americans didn't turn out for Kerry last year? All those other Reservation counties throughout the west were strong Democrat, like Sioux/Rolette, ND, Thurston NE, Apache, AZ.

One of the most unbelievable things last year was Brad Carson losing the Senate Race, he was the most conservative Democrat I've ever seen (he was on Meet the Press) I figured if I didn't like him then he'd go over well in OK but that wasn't the case. All I know is that Carson made some abortion charge against Coburn that backfired.

If someone as right wing as Carson (who, in said Meet the Press show, was evasive about whether he'd even vote for Kerry!) can't win in the Sooner State, then I guess we're screwed down there.

[A18]

Oklahoma has some really fascist and draconian ballot measures as no third party was allowed on, not even as a write-in!  F--- You Oklahoma state government.

Every state should be like this.

[memphis]

Oklahoma has some really fascist and draconian ballot measures as no third party was allowed on, not even as a write-in!  F--- You Oklahoma state government.

Every state should be like this.

I agree. Spolier candidates suck! The Republicans got burned in 1992 and the Dems in 2000. We need an instant runoff system to show more accurately people's preferences.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Oklahoma has some really fascist and draconian ballot measures as no third party was allowed on, not even as a write-in!  F--- You Oklahoma state government.

Every state should be like this.

I agree. Spolier candidates suck! The Republicans got burned in 1992 and the Dems in 2000. We need an instant runoff system to show more accurately people's preferences.

If Perot's voters had voted for Bush and Clinton in the ratios they said they would, Clinton still would have won. As for IRV, it's better than first past the post, but it has some serious problems, some sort of Condorcet system like ranked pairs voting is better.

[memphis]

Oklahoma has some really fascist and draconian ballot measures as no third party was allowed on, not even as a write-in!  F--- You Oklahoma state government.

Every state should be like this.

I agree. Spolier candidates suck! The Republicans got burned in 1992 and the Dems in 2000. We need an instant runoff system to show more accurately people's preferences.

If Perot's voters had voted for Bush and Clinton in the ratios they said they would, Clinton still would have won. As for IRV, it's better than first past the post, but it has some serious problems, some sort of Condorcet system like ranked pairs voting is better.

Please explain Condorcet. I don't know what that is.

[jimrtex]

If Perot's voters had voted for Bush and Clinton in the ratios they said they would, Clinton still would have won. As for IRV, it's better than first past the post, but it has some serious problems, some sort of Condorcet system like ranked pairs voting is better.

If there had been IRV, there is no way of telling whether Clinton, Bush, and Perot would have been the candidates, or whether they would have been the only candidates, or whether they would have run their campaigns in the same way, or whether voters would have cast their first preference for the same candidates that they cast their only vote for.

[minionofmidas]

If Perot's voters had voted for Bush and Clinton in the ratios they said they would, Clinton still would have won. As for IRV, it's better than first past the post, but it has some serious problems, some sort of Condorcet system like ranked pairs voting is better.

If there had been IRV, there is no way of telling whether Clinton, Bush, and Perot would have been the candidates, or whether they would have been the only candidates, or whether they would have run their campaigns in the same way, or whether voters would have cast their first preference for the same candidates that they cast their only vote for.

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memphis - in Condorcet you rank the candidates much as in IRV, but the way it's counted is way different. Basically you compare every candidate with every other candidate, see who got preferenced higher by more people.

[Galactic Overlord]

If someone as right wing as Carson (who, in said Meet the Press show, was evasive about whether he'd even vote for Kerry!) can't win in the Sooner State, then I guess we're screwed down there.

Carson would cast a vote for the Democratic leadership in the Senate, which was considered reason enough for many Sooner voters to vote against him.