Why I am Pro-Choice

[dazzleman]

So you're pissed that the only women that will give you the time of day have kids, so you think they should be aborted. That's easily the worst pro-choice argument I've ever heard.

^^^^^
It also seems ineffective, since the availability of abortion doesn't seem to be helping Flyers anyway.

It is a horribly callous and immoral argument.

Calling me callous for being concerned about babies born with birth defects and unfit parents.  You know you right wingers are so hypocritical.  Calling yourselves "pro-life" and advocating a "culture of life."  You don't care what happens after the a baby's born just as long as they get there.  Well folks what is the opposite of a "death tax", yep you guessed it a "birth tax."  You guys just need bodies from poor families to go off a fight your wars because you know that normally unwanted children are the first to go off to war.  You also know that kids from single parents are also the first to go and least likely to go to college.  If this is your "culture of life" then I want no parts of it. 

Your view of things is pretty wharped, Flyers.  One day you may realize just how wharped, and be embarrassed by it.

[TeePee4Prez]

So you're pissed that the only women that will give you the time of day have kids, so you think they should be aborted. That's easily the worst pro-choice argument I've ever heard.

^^^^^
It also seems ineffective, since the availability of abortion doesn't seem to be helping Flyers anyway.

It is a horribly callous and immoral argument.

Calling me callous for being concerned about babies born with birth defects and unfit parents.  You know you right wingers are so hypocritical.  Calling yourselves "pro-life" and advocating a "culture of life."  You don't care what happens after the a baby's born just as long as they get there.  Well folks what is the opposite of a "death tax", yep you guessed it a "birth tax."  You guys just need bodies from poor families to go off a fight your wars because you know that normally unwanted children are the first to go off to war.  You also know that kids from single parents are also the first to go and least likely to go to college.  If this is your "culture of life" then I want no parts of it. 

Your view of things is pretty wharped, Flyers.  One day you may realize just how wharped, and be embarrassed by it.

Just because I don't agree with you I'm somehow wharped?  Maybe I have seen different things in my life than you.  Maybe I analyze different things than you, I don't know. 

[Brandon H]

If a women doesn't want kids then she should not be having sex. People, both male and female need to be ready to accept responsibility for their actions instead of taking the easy way out.

On the other hand, if you want to do it with a women and don't want to have the possibility of a pregnancy, you could get a vasectamy.

[dazzleman]

Just because I don't agree with you I'm somehow wharped?  Maybe I have seen different things in my life than you.  Maybe I analyze different things than you, I don't know. 

Flyers, I say this with all respect.  It is not that you disagree with me, or anybody else, but the argument that you make.  If you think conservatives oppose abortion because they want bodies to fight wars, you are so sadly mistaken.  Your vehemence in favor of something that most people, even many supporters of at least partially legalized abortion, find to be distasteful and a necessary evil is also unsettling.

What did they do to you in Catholic school that you feel the need to go out of your way to adopt a highly immoral/amoral posture?  It's not really that you support abortion, but your attitude and reasons.

[TeePee4Prez]

Just because I don't agree with you I'm somehow wharped?  Maybe I have seen different things in my life than you.  Maybe I analyze different things than you, I don't know. 

Flyers, I say this with all respect.  It is not that you disagree with me, or anybody else, but the argument that you make.  If you think conservatives oppose abortion because they want bodies to fight wars, you are so sadly mistaken.  Your vehemence in favor of something that most people, even many supporters of at least partially legalized abortion, find to be distasteful and a necessary evil is also unsettling.

What did they do to you in Catholic school that you feel the need to go out of your way to adopt a highly immoral/amoral posture?  It's not really that you support abortion, but your attitude and reasons.

Give me a better reason why you guys are so pro-fetal rights and could really care less after birth.  At least pro-life Dems (minus Zell MIller et al.)are consistent.

[dazzleman]

Just because I don't agree with you I'm somehow wharped?  Maybe I have seen different things in my life than you.  Maybe I analyze different things than you, I don't know. 

Flyers, I say this with all respect.  It is not that you disagree with me, or anybody else, but the argument that you make.  If you think conservatives oppose abortion because they want bodies to fight wars, you are so sadly mistaken.  Your vehemence in favor of something that most people, even many supporters of at least partially legalized abortion, find to be distasteful and a necessary evil is also unsettling.

What did they do to you in Catholic school that you feel the need to go out of your way to adopt a highly immoral/amoral posture?  It's not really that you support abortion, but your attitude and reasons.

Give me a better reason why you guys are so pro-fetal rights and could really care less after birth.  At least pro-life Dems (minus Zell MIller et al.)are consistent.

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

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personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

[dazzleman]

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

A little angry today, are we?  Oh, what am I thinking, that's your usual state of affairs.  Maybe it's time to increase the dosage a little bit.

[TeePee4Prez]

Thank you!  Gee, some of you guys have your penises inserted pre-maritally as well yet you want to put the undue burden on the woman.  At least people like me know I can't take of of the kid and allow a woman to rectify the situation if needed.  Personal responsbility- good one dazzleman!

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

[dazzleman]

Thank you!  Gee, some of you guys have your penises inserted pre-maritally as well yet you want to put the undue burden on the woman.  At least people like me know I can't take of of the kid and allow a woman to rectify the situation if needed.  Personal responsbility- good one dazzleman!

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

Flyers, you really are a nitwit.  And amoral too.

[TeePee4Prez]

Oh, now the name calling.  Gee how much older are you than I?  Good one again!

Thank you!  Gee, some of you guys have your penises inserted pre-maritally as well yet you want to put the undue burden on the woman.  At least people like me know I can't take of of the kid and allow a woman to rectify the situation if needed.  Personal responsbility- good one dazzleman!

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

Flyers, you really are a nitwit.  And amoral too.

[Jake]

No, he's simply the result of a society that can't accept responsibility for their actions. Plus, like a few other left wingers on here, he's very angry.

[TeePee4Prez]

No, he's simply the result of a society that can't accept responsibility for their actions. Plus, like a few other left wingers on here, he's very angry.

Start answering for some of your leaders as well like jfern said!

[Jake]

Again, remind me why I should accept responsibility for someone else's actions. Bush should accept responsibility for his actions, you should accept responsibility for yours. How hard is that to understand.

[dazzleman]

Oh, now the name calling.  Gee how much older are you than I?  Good one again!

Flyers, I think I told you this before.  You aggressively reject the concept of any type of morality.  I'm not necessarily 100% pro-life, but your reasons for supporting abortion are appalling.  I mean that seriously, and don't mean to name call, just point out the truth.  You are on a totally different wavelength when it comes to moral issues, and let's just say that if I supported abortion strongly, your arguments in favor of it would make me rethink my opinion.

[dazzleman]

No, he's simply the result of a society that can't accept responsibility for their actions. Plus, like a few other left wingers on here, he's very angry.

Well, you're right.  He's a bitter guy and it shows up in his political views.

[Cashcow]

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

A little angry today, are we?  Oh, what am I thinking, that's your usual state of affairs.  Maybe it's time to increase the dosage a little bit.

Actually, he raises a fair point, and I'm surprised you haven't addressed it.

[dazzleman]

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

A little angry today, are we?  Oh, what am I thinking, that's your usual state of affairs.  Maybe it's time to increase the dosage a little bit.

Actually, he raises a fair point, and I'm surprised you haven't addressed it.

This thread isn't about the Iraq war or any of that other stuff.  Jfern is a broken record who inserts the same garbage into every argument, no matter what the subject.  There's no reason to address it since it has no place here.  And I find it funny how liberals who are usually brimming over with compassion for violent criminals think a 25-year-old DWI charge against a man who quit drinking 15 years ago is relevant.

[TeePee4Prez]

Oh, now the name calling.  Gee how much older are you than I?  Good one again!

Flyers, I think I told you this before.  You aggressively reject the concept of any type of morality.  I'm not necessarily 100% pro-life, but your reasons for supporting abortion are appalling.  I mean that seriously, and don't mean to name call, just point out the truth.  You are on a totally different wavelength when it comes to moral issues, and let's just say that if I supported abortion strongly, your arguments in favor of it would make me rethink my opinion.

I think we all have different concepts of "morality."  I guess I aggressively reject yours, not necessarily morality in general.  These are just a part of why I'm pro-choice.  I do not support abortion 100% either.  I oppose partial-birth except for the life and physical health of the mother.  I have seen situations where kids had birth defects because of a careless mother, have seen grandparents with extra burdens because their kids are stupid and still getting smashed, have seen college careers interrupted due to unwanted pregancies, have seen how children from single parents are raised, and have come across women who were told by some clown that they are loved, get them pregnant, then leave them.  I think they are valid reasons to support a woman's right to choose.  In some cases, I am also going to say I actually encourage it.  I know it may sound callous, but I have to take all factors into consideration here.  My mother teaches in a poor inner city neighborhood.  A student actually said to her "I'd rather be aborted."  This kid is raised by grandparents who are ill and has to run for a cocaine dealer to make ends meet.  You, Jake, or Phil may find me appalling, but I find someone has to air out the appalling truths of our society that people like you, Jake, or Phil like to cloister yourselves behing a cross and act like they don't exist and everyone should just pick themselves up by their bootstraps.  

[Jake]

There you go with the references to religion and bootstraps. Not everyone who disagrees with your immorality is a religious right fanatic or a Nazi.

[TeePee4Prez]

And by the way this is the difference between your average Pro-life Democrat or Reagan Dem turned Republican versus your standard run of the mill Republican.  The Dem will say they truly care about the humanity of abortion while a true Republican will always say "personal responsibility."  I find a lot of you guys don't care about the humanity concept, just want to be pricks about it.  For crying out loud Jake, you had a picture of Hitler in your signature.  Should I really listen to you when it comes to humanity issues?

[Jake]

You have a picture of Ted Kennedy in your sig. Should I believe you're a drunk?

[dazzleman]

Oh, now the name calling.  Gee how much older are you than I?  Good one again!

Flyers, I think I told you this before.  You aggressively reject the concept of any type of morality.  I'm not necessarily 100% pro-life, but your reasons for supporting abortion are appalling.  I mean that seriously, and don't mean to name call, just point out the truth.  You are on a totally different wavelength when it comes to moral issues, and let's just say that if I supported abortion strongly, your arguments in favor of it would make me rethink my opinion.

I think we all have different concepts of "morality."  I guess I aggressively reject yours, not necessarily morality in general.  These are just a part of why I'm pro-choice.  I do not support abortion 100% either.  I oppose partial-birth except for the life and physical health of the mother.  I have seen situations where kids had birth defects because of a careless mother, have seen grandparents with extra burdens because their kids are stupid and still getting smashed, have seen college careers interrupted due to unwanted pregancies, have seen how children from single parents are raised, and have come across women who were told by some clown that they are loved, get them pregnant, then leave them.  I think they are valid reasons to support a woman's right to choose.  In some cases, I am also going to say I actually encourage it.  I know it may sound callous, but I have to take all factors into consideration here.  My mother teaches in a poor inner city neighborhood.  A student actually said to her "I'd rather be aborted."  This kid is raised by grandparents who are ill and has to run for a cocaine dealer to make ends meet.  You, Jake, or Phil may find me appalling, but I find someone has to air out the appalling truths of our society that people like you, Jake, or Phil like to cloister yourselves behing a cross and act like they don't exist and everyone should just pick themselves up by their bootstraps.  

I understand the problems many of these kids face because of their horrible parents.  Abortion is very practical, and could sometimes be thought to be the best of several bad options.  I don't dispute that, nor have I explicitly argued against the study that says that legalized abortion has lowered crime.

One thing I've learned over time is subtlety.  You can do a lot more if you don't tell everybody what you're doing with a loudspeaker.  Not all issues are black and white.  It's one thing to reluctantly condone something you know is wrong in theory because it could produce a better result in practice.  It's another to celebrate doing it.  You seem to say that abortion must be celebrated, when really all most people are willing to do is reluctantly condone abortion.

Another thing I find interesting is your recognition of problems like single parenthood.  Many liberals aggressively reject this line of thinking, and argue that children of single parents experience far more problems across the board than children with two parents because society gives insufficient support to single parents.

There are many people who should not have children.  As you have noted, not all of them choose to have abortions.  You seem to be arguing almost in favor of mandatory abortion for certain people, or you're just one small step away from it.  And let me tell you -- when I see some these people, I could almost agree, at least with forcible sterilization if not abortion.

I don't know what the answer is to these problems.  We rewarded this type of behavior for so long through well-meaning but misguided liberal welfare programs like AFDC.  I also think there is a link between the expansion of this behavior and the rejection of personal responsibility that I have seen you manifest.  The people that you describe in your post are the poster children for rejection of personal responsibility.

At the very least, I think state governments should consider more aggressive removal of children from unfit parents, since obviously all these types of people have not chosen abortion, as you have hoped they would.

[TeePee4Prez]

I gotta say dazzleman, that was an excellent post.  I have also seen firsthand the excessiveness of AFDC and lots of "baby daddies" as a result.  I strongly agree with the DLC on this issue being that it should still exist, but clamp down on the abuses.  Some people have lots of kids just to get benefits then in turn neglect the kids AFDC was meant to help.  A case of this was the Jackson boys being starved from South Jersey.  I am for personal responsibilty in this aspect but when it comes to abortion I am failing to see Jake's point.   

[dazzleman]

I gotta say dazzleman, that was an excellent post.  I have also seen firsthand the excessiveness of AFDC and lots of "baby daddies" as a result.  I strongly agree with the DLC on this issue being that it should still exist, but clamp down on the abuses.  Some people have lots of kids just to get benefits then in turn neglect the kids AFDC was meant to help.  A case of this was the Jackson boys being starved from South Jersey.  I am for personal responsibilty in this aspect but when it comes to abortion I am failing to see Jake's point.   

The whole "baby daddy" thing is sickening.  Many liberals are reluctant to condemn this because they don't want to be seen as racist.  It's just pathetic.  It is more racist to encourage a practice that continues to condemn large numbers of blacks to a miserable life than it is to speak out against it.

I am a realist, and I think there are basically 3 types of people in society.  There are people who will do the right thing no matter what, people who will do the wrong thing no matter what, and people who will respond to the incentives that are provided.  We have unfortunately expanded greatly the number of people doing the wrong thing in a misguided attempt at moral neutrality, as a way to try to help people who refuse to do the right thing under any circumstances.  We now have a 70% illegitimacy rate among blacks, which is devastating to blacks themselves, but also to our cities and the nation overall.  And you yourself acknowledge the results of this situation, very much to your credit.

We have to find a way to make doing the wrong thing -- in this case having children irresponsibly out of wedlock -- as unattractive as possible so that all but those most determined to do the wrong thing will avoid it.

I just don't see an answer in continuing positive incentives to do the wrong thing, and then kidding ourselves into thinking legal abortion is the answer to this problem.  In my opinion, the mindset behind the aggressive support of legal abortion is the same mindset behind irresponsible childbearing in many ways, and that's why I was so critical of the way you presented your pro-abortion arguments. 

And BTW, even if I don't fully agree with you, the inner city situation you describe is a much more compelling reason to keep abortion as an option than the expectation that the availability of abortion will make it easier for you to get laid.