Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 19, 2017, 06:50:30 am
HomePredMockPollEVCalcAFEWIKIHelpLogin Register
News: Election 2016 predictions are now open!.

+  Atlas Forum
|-+  General Politics
| |-+  Political Debate (Moderators: Beet, Apocrypha)
| | |-+  Why I think we are at war
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Why I think we are at war  (Read 7474 times)
Beef
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5060
United States


View Profile
« on: May 07, 2004, 11:45:42 am »
Ignore

Hey, all... i've been too busy to post for a long time, but just so you know, I am alive Smiley

The subject of the repressed photos of flag-draped coffins came up on another site I participate in, and I thought I'd post this little essay here as well:

People on both sides of the political isle don't understand what this war is really about.

This is not a war for oil. If our prime interest was really to secure Iraq's oil fields, US Big Oil could have just visited Iraq with several dumptrucks full of cash and said "you play nice, 'k?" Win-win situation all around.

This is not a war to protect the American people from terrorism. In a world in which our true threat is from Islamist extremists, a secular dictator is the least of our worries. If anything, it keeps us more safe, since Saddam was very good as tearing out all religious extremism at the root. Furthermore, Saddam was smart enough not to try anything stupid, as the world was watching him like a hawk. He was no immediate threat to us.

What this is really about is the neo-conservative ideology that American military might is the solution to the world's ills. The philosophy goes something along the lines of "Hey, we have the most powerful and advanced military in the history of mankind. Why aren't we f-ing using it?" The neo-cons honestly believe that we can make the world a Better Place through force. They have a grand vision that we can democratize and stabilize the world's trouble spots with a few F-14s and Bradley fighting vehicles. That decades- and centruies-old conflicts will be dropped once everyone has freedom and democracy. The intentions are good, but somewhere along line they have forgotten the consequences of invading an occupying a foriegn land, and that war, even with the best of intentions, is hell.

This is why our friends and loved ones are dying.

Now, to cover their asses, because they've gotten themselves tangled up in something they never really thoroughly thought through, they are trying to do as much PR damage control as they possibly can. They think that they are always one or two successful offensives away from ending the conflict, and if they can just candy-coat the war, they'll keep the American public on their side just long enough to finish operations. THAT is why the Bush administration is adamant about keeping these pictures from the public.

Maybe my analysis is incorrect, but things sure look that way with each passing month.
Logged
elcorazon
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2954


P
View Profile
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2004, 12:03:16 pm »
Ignore

Great post.  I agree with every word.
Logged


"The most important thing to remember is, no matter what anybody tells you, it is never, ever unpatriotic or un-American to question anything in a democracy"
Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2004, 12:11:19 pm »
Ignore

The threat is not Islamists extremists, the threat is Islam- from it's very foundations it was a religion of hate, genocide, and war. The problem with saddam was that he was SUPPORTING nations that attacked Israel and the US, or harbored terrorists.

Further, Saddam had weapons of mass destruction! Though they probably are not in Iraq right now (most likely in Syria or on the Syrian-lebanese or syrian-iraqi border), we got rid of them. That was completely just.

Was this a war about oil? That probably had some influence. And why not? We save a nation, we share their oil.

We never went into this war to save a nation, that was a minor thing. We went into this war because Saddam had been a threat to the US for many years- Even Clinton agreed, even in 1998 Ted Kennedy agreed, John Kerry, Al Gore- they all agreed that Saddam Hussein was a huge threat to our national security. Clinton had it as one of his prime objectives for the longest time.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
ilikeverin
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 15816
Timor-Leste


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2004, 12:17:55 pm »
Ignore

The threat is not Islamists extremists, the threat is Islam- from it's very foundations it was a religion of hate, genocide, and war.

Shocked
Logged

Associate Justice of the Supreme Court in Atlasia
KEmperor
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8517
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.00, S: -0.05

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2004, 12:25:02 pm »
Ignore

The threat is not Islamists extremists, the threat is Islam

Only partially true.  The true threat is religion itself, but of course no one ever wants to hear that.
Logged

Something nice said about me:

He isn't a total joke and a communist sympathizer. You'd be lucky to get 10% anywhere outside of DC. I don't even know that you could win DC. It would be awfully close in any event.
Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2004, 12:26:56 pm »
Ignore

Want me to prove it? I'de gladly talk about how Mohammad was confused about religion all his life and so pagans made fun of him, and he had deep hatred towards them. I can mention how when Mohammad hired Jewish mercinaries to take mecca, he allowed his soldiers to kill all of them. I can tell you about how Mohammad killed 300 Jewish men, women, and children in towns in Saudi Arabia. I can tell you how the only way Islam got converts was through the sword. I can tell you that the Egyptians, Iraqis, Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians, and many Libyans, Algerians, Tunisians, and Moraccans are Arab today, and not the original people. The original people of north africa were the Berbers, the original people of Egypt were the Copts (egytpians), the original people in PAlestine were several kinds of non-arabs, the original people in Lebanon were decendents of the Phoenecians, and the original people in Iraq were Assyrians and Chaldeans (babylonians). The people in these countries today are ALL arabs and the original people today are persecuted.

Islam is NOT a religion of peace.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2004, 12:28:03 pm »
Ignore

Religion is not the threat- the "threat" is people having different beliefs. One could say "if everyone was nontheist, we wouldn't have problems". But somebody could just as easily say "if everyone was Muslim, we wouldn't have problems". It's hypocritical.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
ShapeShifter
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2745


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2004, 12:30:47 pm »
Ignore

Oil Prices Hit $40, First Time Since 1990
Logged

KEmperor
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8517
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.00, S: -0.05

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2004, 12:31:44 pm »
Ignore

Religion is not the threat- the "threat" is people having different beliefs. One could say "if everyone was nontheist, we wouldn't have problems". But somebody could just as easily say "if everyone was Muslim, we wouldn't have problems". It's hypocritical.

I disagree, because religions have a tendency to schism.
Logged

Something nice said about me:

He isn't a total joke and a communist sympathizer. You'd be lucky to get 10% anywhere outside of DC. I don't even know that you could win DC. It would be awfully close in any event.
Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2004, 12:31:44 pm »
Ignore

Yup, we're definately getting a whole ton of oil from Iraq. woohoo.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
angus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17472
View Profile
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2004, 01:11:35 pm »
Ignore

Hey, all... i've been too busy to post for a long time, but just so you know, I am alive Smiley

The subject of the repressed photos of flag-draped coffins came up on another site I participate in, and I thought I'd post this little essay here as well:

People on both sides of the political isle don't understand what this war is really about.

This is not a war for oil. If our prime interest was really to secure Iraq's oil fields, US Big Oil could have just visited Iraq with several dumptrucks full of cash and said "you play nice, 'k?" Win-win situation all around.

This is not a war to protect the American people from terrorism. In a world in which our true threat is from Islamist extremists, a secular dictator is the least of our worries. If anything, it keeps us more safe, since Saddam was very good as tearing out all religious extremism at the root. Furthermore, Saddam was smart enough not to try anything stupid, as the world was watching him like a hawk. He was no immediate threat to us.

What this is really about is the neo-conservative ideology that American military might is the solution to the world's ills. The philosophy goes something along the lines of "Hey, we have the most powerful and advanced military in the history of mankind. Why aren't we f-ing using it?" The neo-cons honestly believe that we can make the world a Better Place through force. They have a grand vision that we can democratize and stabilize the world's trouble spots with a few F-14s and Bradley fighting vehicles. That decades- and centruies-old conflicts will be dropped once everyone has freedom and democracy. The intentions are good, but somewhere along line they have forgotten the consequences of invading an occupying a foriegn land, and that war, even with the best of intentions, is hell.

This is why our friends and loved ones are dying.

Now, to cover their asses, because they've gotten themselves tangled up in something they never really thoroughly thought through, they are trying to do as much PR damage control as they possibly can. They think that they are always one or two successful offensives away from ending the conflict, and if they can just candy-coat the war, they'll keep the American public on their side just long enough to finish operations. THAT is why the Bush administration is adamant about keeping these pictures from the public.

Maybe my analysis is incorrect, but things sure look that way with each passing month.

nice to see your green wisconson icon again, and to know I'm not the only butcher-shop afficionado at the forum.  yes, I think that's an interesting analysis.  I have always said that if scientists and engineers are going to be pawns of the military, then we'd at least like to have the internal gratification of knowing the toys we create will be taken out of the package and played with just a bit.  I think you may be underestimating the attraction of that country's vast natural resources, though.
Logged
Beef
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 5060
United States


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2004, 02:15:26 pm »
Ignore


nice to see your green wisconson icon again, and to know I'm not the only butcher-shop afficionado at the forum.  

Smiley

yes, I think that's an interesting analysis.  I have always said that if scientists and engineers are going to be pawns of the military, then we'd at least like to have the internal gratification of knowing the toys we create will be taken out of the package and played with just a bit.  

One thing that I leave out of that analysis is that there is also the neo-con doctrine of pre-emption.  "Saddam's not necessarily a threat now, but he could be in the nebulous future, so we better take him out now before he builds a big, badass arsenal of ICMBs and launches his Orbital Mind-Control Lasers."  But it's all part and parcel of the same mindset, that we should use the US military to solve problems.  And, hey, if we get to play with our cool toys in the process, all the better!

I think you may be underestimating the attraction of that country's vast natural resources, though.

Oh, I'm not denying that Iraq's 100 billion barells of oil is a tremendous asset, but I don't think we're in Iraq to plunder it.  There are much easier ways to secure this resource than war.  Besides, look at things from the perspective of the US oil companies: A hostile regime in Iraq limits the supply of oil to the US.  When supply runs low, prices stay high.  More profit.  A friendly, non-OPEC Iraq?  The last thing oil companies want is free-flowing oil out of the world's second-largest reserve.  The natural price of oil, without the cartel's meddling, is probably around $10/barrel.  With the price-fixing: over $30.  Which do you think is more profitable?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2004, 02:16:11 pm by Beef »Logged
opebo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 47114


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2004, 02:38:54 pm »
Ignore

The threat is not Islamists extremists, the threat is Islam- from it's very foundations it was a religion of hate, genocide, and war.

Shocked

I couldn't agree more.
Logged

The essence of democracy at its purest is a lynch mob

opebo
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 47114


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2004, 02:40:06 pm »
Ignore

The threat is not Islamists extremists, the threat is Islam

Only partially true.  The true threat is religion itself, but of course no one ever wants to hear that.

I couldn't agree more, but there are worse ones and better ones.  Personally I have a soft spot for Buddhist societies.  Though I of course would never believe in such nonsense as religion.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2004, 02:40:47 pm by opebo »Logged

The essence of democracy at its purest is a lynch mob

Mort from NewYawk
MortfromNewYawk
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 399


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2004, 03:46:40 pm »
Ignore

Beef –

Let me echo the sentiment – good to read your posts again.

Yes, I agree that the neocons are responsible for the philosophical rationale for this war.

Sure, the fact that America stands unchallenged in military might means that we can topple regimes, but  the piece you omit is what happens between the regime change and the democratic state. The thrust of twentieth century American foreign policy is represented by guys like Perle and Wolfowitz, who learned and shaped it under men like Scoop Jackson and Ronald Reagan . The idea is that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness really are natural rights that humans deserve, and that America has some responsibility in the world to uphold these rights where we can and when we must. With suicidal fanaticism running rampant and terrorizing whole populations (Arab more than anyone else), we must.

Iraq’s population has been terrorized so long that it’s become a habit for them. But I believe that a majority would like to rid the streets of religious crazies, as well as American troops. The Baathists and al-Sadrs are being isolated and destroyed, and the major players in Iraq are more than ready to jockey for political position.

The death of a single soldier is a tragedy, yet I am not a pacifist. There is good reason to hope that these soldiers will not have died in vain.
Logged

Social progressive, foreign policy hawk. 2004:Democrat for Lieberman, voted Bush. 2008:McCain
Huckleberry Finn
Finn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1820


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2004, 04:53:09 pm »
Ignore

Hey, all... i've been too busy to post for a long time, but just so you know, I am alive Smiley

The subject of the repressed photos of flag-draped coffins came up on another site I participate in, and I thought I'd post this little essay here as well:

People on both sides of the political isle don't understand what this war is really about.

This is not a war for oil. If our prime interest was really to secure Iraq's oil fields, US Big Oil could have just visited Iraq with several dumptrucks full of cash and said "you play nice, 'k?" Win-win situation all around.

This is not a war to protect the American people from terrorism. In a world in which our true threat is from Islamist extremists, a secular dictator is the least of our worries. If anything, it keeps us more safe, since Saddam was very good as tearing out all religious extremism at the root. Furthermore, Saddam was smart enough not to try anything stupid, as the world was watching him like a hawk. He was no immediate threat to us.

What this is really about is the neo-conservative ideology that American military might is the solution to the world's ills. The philosophy goes something along the lines of "Hey, we have the most powerful and advanced military in the history of mankind. Why aren't we f-ing using it?" The neo-cons honestly believe that we can make the world a Better Place through force. They have a grand vision that we can democratize and stabilize the world's trouble spots with a few F-14s and Bradley fighting vehicles. That decades- and centruies-old conflicts will be dropped once everyone has freedom and democracy. The intentions are good, but somewhere along line they have forgotten the consequences of invading an occupying a foriegn land, and that war, even with the best of intentions, is hell.

This is why our friends and loved ones are dying.

Now, to cover their asses, because they've gotten themselves tangled up in something they never really thoroughly thought through, they are trying to do as much PR damage control as they possibly can. They think that they are always one or two successful offensives away from ending the conflict, and if they can just candy-coat the war, they'll keep the American public on their side just long enough to finish operations. THAT is why the Bush administration is adamant about keeping these pictures from the public.

Maybe my analysis is incorrect, but things sure look that way with each passing month.
Good analysis and probably very close of true.

Unlike most Europeans I have never believed that oil was the big reason. (It had some effect of course) Most Europeans don't understand how idealistic Americans are. And that is biggest reason why so many people here think that USA is imperialistic.
Logged

I live in Finland. I vote Conservatives (National Coalition Party) in Finnish elections, but consider myself as moderate Democrat in the USA.

In New York for the purpose of Fantasy Elections.
Gustaf
Moderators
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 28547


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

P P P

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2004, 05:22:21 pm »
Ignore

Good analyses Beef...and good to see you up and posting again. Smiley

On Islam, most religions can be anything Brambilla. Isn't OT pretty bloody? With wars and slaughters and everything.
Logged

This place really has become a cesspool of degenerate whores...

Economic score: +0.9
Social score: -2.61

In MN for fantasy stuff, member of the most recently dissolved centrist party.
Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2004, 07:11:11 pm »
Ignore

Attilla the Hun was pretty bloody. The Soviet Union was pretty bloody. Cuba's pretty bloody. China's pretty bloody.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
KEmperor
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 8517
United States


Political Matrix
E: 8.00, S: -0.05

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2004, 08:56:15 pm »
Ignore

Attilla the Hun was pretty bloody. The Soviet Union was pretty bloody. Cuba's pretty bloody. China's pretty bloody.

Yes, we all know that barbarians and communists are brutal.
Logged

Something nice said about me:

He isn't a total joke and a communist sympathizer. You'd be lucky to get 10% anywhere outside of DC. I don't even know that you could win DC. It would be awfully close in any event.
Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2004, 09:08:22 pm »
Ignore

Precisely my point. You can't just blame everything on religion. If everyone had the same belief, there wouldn't war- so it's not religion, it's different beliefs. Ultimately, there is one truth, and many people claim to have this truth. The question is, which one is it?
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
angus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17472
View Profile
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2004, 10:05:30 pm »
Ignore

beef, we have always had venezuela and texas and louisiana and a closer relationship with the House of Saud than most OECD countries, so we pay a bit less for gasoline.  But it's hard to ignore the Vice President's and the President's business connections to the refining and petrochemical businesses.  I don't know whether it's a kneejerk overestimation, or an idealistic underestimation.  But I have to assume that, hostile or not, a hundred and twenty thousand US troops in the fertile crescent is better on my gasoline budget than a hundred and twenty thousand Iraqi troops.  but I'm generally a consumer, not a capitalist.  If I were a petrocapitalist, I think it still stands to reason that I'd rather my boys, not saddam's, not chirac's, not vladimir's, guard the ports and the wells, wouldn't you?
Logged
Huckleberry Finn
Finn
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 1820


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2004, 08:59:08 am »
Ignore

beef, we have always had venezuela and texas and louisiana and a closer relationship with the House of Saud than most OECD countries, so we pay a bit less for gasoline.  But it's hard to ignore the Vice President's and the President's business connections to the refining and petrochemical businesses.  I don't know whether it's a kneejerk overestimation, or an idealistic underestimation.  But I have to assume that, hostile or not, a hundred and twenty thousand US troops in the fertile crescent is better on my gasoline budget than a hundred and twenty thousand Iraqi troops.  but I'm generally a consumer, not a capitalist.  If I were a petrocapitalist, I think it still stands to reason that I'd rather my boys, not saddam's, not chirac's, not vladimir's, guard the ports and the wells, wouldn't you?
War is poor business. Look what is oil price now. Look what is economical, political and human cost of war.

It is begining to seem clear, that war was mistake. Right time of this war was in 1991. But now you are there and you should keep your forces there. Withdrawing is NO solution.  
 
It's ironic that finally this war will benefit most the people of Iraq (or at least I want to believe that) not people of USA. I accepted this war, because I couldn't see peaceful overthrowing of Saddam regime. There was two alternatives: the foreign intervention or the civil war.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2004, 09:17:14 am by Huckleberry Finn »Logged

I live in Finland. I vote Conservatives (National Coalition Party) in Finnish elections, but consider myself as moderate Democrat in the USA.

In New York for the purpose of Fantasy Elections.
??????????
StatesRights
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 31213
Political Matrix
E: 7.61, S: 0.00

View Profile
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2004, 01:13:48 pm »
Ignore

Shame on CBS for releasing those pictures. The matter was being investigated to begin with. That story is basically old news. CBS is another part of the great Liberal/Democrat machine to vietnamize this war. Shame on those who put our soldiers lives at risk. Ted Kennedy is a disgrace to this nation as a whole and should be impeached and removed for treasonous speach. I say it's time to bring back the Alien/Sedition acts and lets get the ball rolling to defend America. These strong opponents to our war are cutting our knees out from under us and basically allowing the enemy to keep morale high enough to keep fighting. Shame on them.
Logged
Brambila
Brambilla
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 2095


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2004, 01:24:22 pm »
Ignore

Statesrights, you bring up a very good point- this is old news. It happened last december, and the report was already made in January.
Logged

Economic Left/Right: 4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64

"We could never judge that one thing is better than another if a basic understanding of the good had not already been instilled in us."
-Saint Augustine
angus
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 17472
View Profile
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2004, 02:22:48 pm »
Ignore


War is poor business. Look what is oil price now. Look what is economical, political and human cost of war.

It is begining to seem clear, that war was mistake. Right time of this war was in 1991. But now you are there and you should keep your forces there. Withdrawing is NO solution.  
 
It's ironic that finally this war will benefit most the people of Iraq (or at least I want to believe that) not people of USA. I accepted this war, because I couldn't see peaceful overthrowing of Saddam regime. There was two alternatives: the foreign intervention or the civil war.


Depends on what business you're in really.  For example, an undertaker or a weapons expert might find war to be good for business.  If your business depends on selling a product, and profit equals revenue minus cost, then you want to lower costs.  One way to lower costs is to have some control over the supply of goods.  Or so the thinking went.  

There was never a good time for this war.  Not in 1991, not today.  Ho Chi Minh had often told the vietnamese people, "The enemy is the American government, not the American people."  In fact, Viet Nam had always been forgiving of its enemies (indeed, in 1426 the vietnamese provided a defeated Chinese army with boats and horses to carry home its soldiers.)  And the good people of Viet Nam acknowledge the practical benefits, economic and political, of a good relationship with the USA.  I think my government may have been expecting a similar logic to prevail in Iraq.  Many scholars and historians, in both 'coalition' countries, informed their respective governments not to expect this.  
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Logout

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines