Why are Muslim immigrants so bad at integrating into thier new host societies?

[phk]

Why are Muslim immigrants so bad at integrating into thier new host societies?

This question needs to be asked in America and Europe more often.

[minionofmidas]

Pose the question correctly, and I'll try to answer it.

[opebo]

Because of religion, phknrocket.  All other religious who actually take their religion seriously would be problematic emigrants.  Just imagine a Southern American attempting to live in a civilized (secular) society.

[Joe Republic]

I wonder if any Muslims in their own countries wonder the same thing about Western immigrants?  Every time I see or hear about an American or European who has moved out there, the immigrants always strike me as being incredibly insensitive to the customs and culture of their adopted nation.  And yet strangely the locals don't seem to complain too loudly about it.  Maybe we complain because the Muslim immigrants don't bring any money with them when they arrive here.

[MODU]

I wonder if any Muslims in their own countries wonder the same thing about Western immigrants?  Every time I see or hear about an American or European who has moved out there, the immigrants always strike me as being incredibly insensitive to the customs and culture of their adopted nation.  And yet strangely the locals don't seem to complain too loudly about it.  Maybe we complain because the Muslim immigrants don't bring any money with them when they arrive here.

My complaint is always language.  No matter which country you are from, if you move to a new country, you should ALREADY know the local language before heading there.

[The Duke]

It's not the Muslim's fault, its that the host societies shun the idea of integration in favor of "diversity".  Encouraging integration gets you pegged as a racist, so instead of creating a melting pot you get large groups of unassimilated people with no connection to the society they live in.

[Joe Republic]

I wonder if any Muslims in their own countries wonder the same thing about Western immigrants?  Every time I see or hear about an American or European who has moved out there, the immigrants always strike me as being incredibly insensitive to the customs and culture of their adopted nation.  And yet strangely the locals don't seem to complain too loudly about it.  Maybe we complain because the Muslim immigrants don't bring any money with them when they arrive here.

My complaint is always language.  No matter which country you are from, if you move to a new country, you should ALREADY know the local language before heading there.

I agree, but this should work both ways too.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It's not the Muslim's fault, its that the host societies shun the idea of integration in favor of "diversity".  Encouraging integration gets you pegged as a racist, so instead of creating a melting pot you get large groups of unassimilated people with no connection to the society they live in.

That's been a problem in a lot of places, yes.

[Gabu]

I lived below a Muslim family a few years back (we rented the basement suite in a 2-floor house; they rented the top suite).  The main sense that I got was that they didn't really feel any need to integrate.  They could speak English and everyone that they had to deal with was accomodating enough that they didn't have to do much beyond that.

Plus - I probably shouldn't mention this because... certain posters will jump on it - the father in the family was a lot more aggressive in nature than your average citizen, so it's likely that it's actually not even in his best interest to integrate, because he gets his way much more often when he acts as he did back in Iran (where the family was from).

[MODU]

I wonder if any Muslims in their own countries wonder the same thing about Western immigrants?  Every time I see or hear about an American or European who has moved out there, the immigrants always strike me as being incredibly insensitive to the customs and culture of their adopted nation.  And yet strangely the locals don't seem to complain too loudly about it.  Maybe we complain because the Muslim immigrants don't bring any money with them when they arrive here.

My complaint is always language.  No matter which country you are from, if you move to a new country, you should ALREADY know the local language before heading there.

I agree, but this should work both ways too.

In what way?  That the host country needs to learn the language of the person coming to it?  I'm not ready to learn 100 languages.

[afleitch]

It's a cultural and religious thing really. We could theoretically give every immigrant a job, a big house and £100,000 in thier hand, but it wouldn't make them want to integrate. In all honesty, many of them simply don't want to integrate no matter how amiable you are as a nation and no matter how many concessions you make. I agree that we seem to promote diversity over integration. Making something 'diverse' doesn't make it inclusive or more attractive. It just just allows mistrust and dislike to flourish for both immigrant and host national alike.

[Joe Republic]

My complaint is always language.  No matter which country you are from, if you move to a new country, you should ALREADY know the local language before heading there.

I agree, but this should work both ways too.

In what way?  That the host country needs to learn the language of the person coming to it?  I'm not ready to learn 100 languages.

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  I meant that Muslim immigrants (and others) need to learn English if they want to move here, but also that Westerners need to learn the relevant language of the country they intend to move to as well.  It's only fair and reasonable.  We can't expect them to bend over backwards to cater for our cultural differences, and then kick up a fuss when they expect the same from us.

[dazzleman]

It's not the Muslim's fault, its that the host societies shun the idea of integration in favor of "diversity".  Encouraging integration gets you pegged as a racist, so instead of creating a melting pot you get large groups of unassimilated people with no connection to the society they live in.

I think you're right about the dangers of encouraging "diversity" rather than assimilation.  The whole "diversity" thing is another one of those mindless politically correct mantras that we're supposed to support without really thinking about it.  And it seems only a minority of people ever actually see the reality through the veneer of slogans like multiculturalism, diversity, etc.  I hate all of it, and these riots are a good example of why.

[Cubby]

Why are Muslim immigrants so bad at integrating into thier new host societies?

This question needs to be asked in America and Europe more often.

Because they are so extremely religious. Maybe if they prayed once a day like every other faith, instead of 5 times, we wouldn't be so suspicious of them. Muslims have to join the modern world and stop living in the 15th Century, where religion was the single most important thing in every person's life. Today it can be one important thing among many, but we are secular for a reason.

Muslims are corrupting Europe and they need to leave or else tone down the unpleasant aspects of their faith. I know that sounds harsh but it took 2 thousand years to build Europe as we know it and it shouldn't be changed just because some people are too stubborn to assimilate into their new countries.

[Platypus]

Change it to Arabs. The Turks and Indonesians are very well integrated in Australian society, and the Pakistani and Indian muslims as well. Only the Arabic and, to a lesser degree, Afghani immigrants are 'problematic'.

[Hatman 🍁]

It's not the Muslim's fault, its that the host societies shun the idea of integration in favor of "diversity".  Encouraging integration gets you pegged as a racist, so instead of creating a melting pot you get large groups of unassimilated people with no connection to the society they live in.

I think you're right about the dangers of encouraging "diversity" rather than assimilation.  The whole "diversity" thing is another one of those mindless politically correct mantras that we're supposed to support without really thinking about it.  And it seems only a minority of people ever actually see the reality through the veneer of slogans like multiculturalism, diversity, etc.  I hate all of it, and these riots are a good example of why.

Well, the homogenous nature of Europe certainly sparks these things, but I am thankful to live in a country that prides itself on diversity and multiculturalism over assimilation. Never had any race riots here.

[Platypus]

What Earl said.

[Gabu]

And it seems only a minority of people ever actually see the reality through the veneer of slogans like multiculturalism, diversity, etc.  I hate all of it, and these riots are a good example of why.

If you're referring to the riots in Paris, I'm not sure why you're using that as an example if you're attempting to link multiculturalism with violence.  The French government (and indeed, the French people as well) are hardly a beacon of tolerance when it comes to overt displays of religion; the government's official position is opposition to the wearing of an "ostentatious" sign of religious expression.  The Islamic headscarf is banned from public schools in France, and since 1994 (the initial date of the ban), over 100 girls have been expelled from state schools for violating the ban, although French courts overturned roughly half of the expulsions.  From what we know of public opinion of this ban, it would appear that a majority are in favor of it, so it's not as if the government is acting against the will of the people here, either.

The freedom of religion is indeed a constitutionally protected right in France, but this is true in essentially any first-world country with a constitution.  All things considered, I don't really think that France is all that more embracing of diversity than America - and in some cases, they're even less so than America.  At the very least, it seems quite clear to me that their reaction to the riots has been anything but "tolerant" and "respectful of diversity"; rather, it's been quite heavy-handed, resulting in things such as an imposed curfew due to its being declared a "civil war".

All things considered, the events in Paris strike me as a display of what happens when society gets too restrictive, not too tolerant.  The banning of Islamic headscarves alone in public schools, for example, has been a source of major controversy in France.  It seems to me that the lesson here is that if you're going to let foreigners into your country at all, it's a good idea to allow them to carry on at least somewhat as they did in their home country, lest they get violent through extreme culture shock.  The only other viable option is to not let foreigners into your country at all.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Change it to Arabs. The Turks and Indonesians are very well integrated in Australian society, and the Pakistani and Indian muslims as well. Only the Arabic and, to a lesser degree, Afghani immigrants are 'problematic'.

Oh, our Arabs are fine. Live around the Edgeware road* in Westminster for the most part. Lot of Jews live round there as well and the two groups get on well.

Over here the main problem is the Bangladeshis; as far as Pakistanis go the Kashmiri's aren't very integrated but want to be (most of the younger ones are sick of the Biridari system for one thing) and the riots in 2001 up in the old mill towns were more due to that than anything else (tensions have happily dropped a lot recently) and Islamic extremism is very rare with Kashmiris outside one part of East Birmingham, the Punjabis on the other hand are more integrated but more likely to be involved in Islamic extremism.
In London at least, the Bangladeshi community isn't integrated and doesn't seem to want to be...

*You may remember that name for some reason.

[dazzleman]

Gabu, I think the problem is that the French, and other European countries, have allowed in a large number of hostile foreigners, and have not really allowed them to assimilate, instead encouraging separatism.  This is the inevitable result of separatism.

The only significant problem that the US has had in this area involves people that the US foolishly did not allow to assimilate.

I don't think the answer is "tolerance" for people with a hostile or alien culture that conflicts with the values of overall society.  What most newcomers can achieve in the US, and can't in Europe, is the hope that they can one day really be a part of society.  When a group of people exists outside of mainstream society, in a worse off position than the rest of society, and there's no hope of improving that condition, things get ugly.

That's why I definitely favor assimilation to some degree over "multiculturalism" and "diversity."  Whatever the intentions behind these two ideas, they can lead only to separation and inferiority.  Assimilation does not mean losing ones' cultural identity; it simply means fitting sufficiently into the rest of society so as to be able to function at the same level as the average person.

I love the way Canandians pat themselves on the back when their country is continually on the verge of falling apart due to their own assimilation issues.  Not to mention that they still have only very small numbers of unassimilated people who are inclined toward violence.  Keep letting those people in and discouraging assimilation, and see what happens.

Here's a link to a good editorial on this subject:
http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/30706.htm

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

It's not the Muslim's fault, its that the host societies shun the idea of integration in favor of "diversity".  Encouraging integration gets you pegged as a racist, so instead of creating a melting pot you get large groups of unassimilated people with no connection to the society they live in.

^^^^^^^
AMEN!!!!!

[dazzleman]

It's not the Muslim's fault, its that the host societies shun the idea of integration in favor of "diversity".  Encouraging integration gets you pegged as a racist, so instead of creating a melting pot you get large groups of unassimilated people with no connection to the society they live in.

^^^^^^^
AMEN!!!!!

I don't think that's the whole problem, in all honesty.  I'm not sure how much any of these muslims in France want to assimilate.

This does show the danger of enabling and allowing this type of separation.  These people are much like our own hard-core welfare recipients -- they have a separate culture, and there exists a mutual disdain between them and the rest of society.  They are heavily subsidized by the taxpayers they despise, and the taxpayers regard them with hostility and contempt.  They live in isolation for mutual reasons -- nobody wants them around, and they don't want to be around the rest of society.

Liberal policies, whatever their intent, created pockets of these situations in all the western countries.  Nobody should be encouraged and subsidized to maintain a separate culture and refuse to assimilate with society.  There should be a carrot and stick approach -- end the permanent subsidies, but work on improving job opportunity and keep the door open to assimilation.

As I said earlier, in the US our only significant problem of this nature involved people we didn't allow to assimilate.  Now we're compounding that error by encouraging and subsidizing a deleterious separate culture.  The French have done essentially the same thing.

It's hard not to take some satisfaction in their problems, as I know they would and have when the roles are reversed.  But the US is not immune to this type of thing either, which is encouraged but not wholly created by misguided and foolish liberal policies.

[phk]

Not to mention that Europeans have much more "hardier" cultures than America, making it hard to assimilate in the first place.

[dazzleman]

Not to mention that Europeans have much more "hardier" cultures than America, making it hard to assimilate in the first place.

For most people, the US has been easier to assimilate in than most other countries.  We made the mistake of refusing to assimilate a group of people that has been here longer than almost everybody else, and the results of that stupidity remain at the center of most of our problems.

Still, our record is better overall than the European record, which may explain why the muslims here don't appear to be as hostile as they are in Europe, at least as far as I can tell.

[Michael Z]

It's not the Muslim's fault, its that the host societies shun the idea of integration in favor of "diversity".  Encouraging integration gets you pegged as a racist, so instead of creating a melting pot you get large groups of unassimilated people with no connection to the society they live in.

I think you're right about the dangers of encouraging "diversity" rather than assimilation.  The whole "diversity" thing is another one of those mindless politically correct mantras that we're supposed to support without really thinking about it.  And it seems only a minority of people ever actually see the reality through the veneer of slogans like multiculturalism, diversity, etc.  I hate all of it, and these riots are a good example of why.

Assimilation can be just as risky, though. If people are not allowed to be true to their identity but feel they are forced into conforming to every single cultural rule without being given the feeling that they can contribute something to society themselves, then they will only be frustrated, and that way social problems can be created as well.

Besides, there is something of an irony to any western society which (by the very nature of the intrinsic individualism of western societies) should somehow try to assimilate people. Perhaps "assimilation" is simply the wrong word to use. It sounds kind of cold and clinical, and doesn't necessarily treat people as individuals.